Inner City Houston?

[GovernorAggie]

I was wondering how everyone viewed this:

While doing some research at my job comparing several cities around the country, I noticed that Beltway 8's circumference in very close to that of I-285 in Atlanta (64 miles), I-485 in Charlotte (65 miles), the future I-640 in Raleigh (71 miles), I-435 in Kansas City (80 miles), I-495 in DC (64 miles), I-494/694 (65 miles) in the Twin Cities, and I-275 in Cincinnati (84 miles).

So since it looks more and more that the Grand Parkway will happen, should we really look at the areas inside of BW8 as "Inner City Houston"? "Inner Atlanta" is inside 285, for example. Or there's the "inside the Beltway" expression for DC.

In Charlotte, we had a road (Route 4) that was the boundary of "the inner city", but when the area redid a lot of zoning policies and density allowances, "Inside 485" was creeping up more and more in conversations. Some people there actually believe that 485 will become an unofficial boundary between "Charlotte" and "the suburbs". We also has I-277, which functioned just like the I-45/10/59 loop around downtown. Like Houston, that was the unofficial boundary of downtown (or "Uptown" as they call it).

I would submit that areas inside the Beltway will become known as "the inner city" after Grand Parkway is finished. Density will increase, maybe to the levels of the Heights. It will also be the area best served by transit and will have more infrastructure. I believe H-GAC's projections that the sprawl will happen outside the Beltway with or without Grand Parkway--actually it already has. Hopefully it will end around Grand Parkway.

[pineda]

Interesting debate; here's one as a corrollary to that;

In Segment F-2 area (see map at www.grandpky.com):

Spring Terrace

Bella Serra

Northcrest Village

Gosling Pines

Rhodes Landing

Northwoods Catholic School

All these are either on-the-ground homes/schools already, or in the construction phase. When the builders/developers were approached and asked what they intended to do about the Grand Parkway, their responses were remarkably the same: nothing. They said that until the Grand Parkway is actually being built, that they intend to go full-speed-ahead with their plans to develop the area. On their maps in the sales offices for prospective buyers, there are no indications of any kind that the Grand Parkway has even proposed a recommended alignment, right through the middle of all these developments. What happens when the developers are done, the builders are gone, and Joe-First-Time-Homebuyer starts to receive letters of condemnation proceedings with tales of eminent domain. Who is responsible to the this person, or is it all just Buyer Beware?

[WestGrayGuy]

Inner City = Inner Loop

My opinion

[UrbaNerd]

I agree, until that area gets "built up" and "infilled" enough. Then, we can move on to the Beltway.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[GovernorAggie]

For the most part, Atlanta is pretty built out inside of 285, and my guess is that DC is built out inside the Beltway. The only cities that I'm familiar with are Charlotte and Raleigh. In both cases, there isn't full buildout within those loops (especially since they're not even done yet) but speaking of Charlotte specifically, the parts of 485 that have been around the longest in the southern part of the city have development have development all along them. The Ballantyne community, which is an edge city/master planned community type of development has a ton of office space and has begun building a couple 16 story condo towers. It had long been a standard of not having development nowhere near that dense that far outside of the I-277 "Uptown" loop. There are also several condo developments outside the downtown area as well as other higher density residential and commercial projects that would not have happened before I-485 (IMO).

The Ballantyne area is below the Hwy 51 symbol, south of 485. The full loop of 485 won't be done till maybe 2013 (even though the southern parts have been open since the late 1980s). Within the last year the eastern and western legs were completed (the western being the last couple months). However, they have taken into account that there will b higher density in some areas inside of 485, and 485 has already become a psychological entry/exit to the core of Charlotte. One main part of the planning direction there is to just accept that the area will become the core of a much larger region, not just its immediate area, and 485 has played some role in that dilineation--long before it fully comes to pass.

Thus the reasoning behind my point here...maybe the powers that be and the locals could begin to understand that the "core" of Houston will actually expand and be artificially bounded by BW8--maybe find a parcel and buy it . But the changes may take so long that you end up deeding it to your grandkids.

[2112]

Inside the loop means inside the loop. City is city. If you are in the city limits of Houston, then you are in the city of Houston. If you are not, then you are not. However, you can be in the city of Houston and live in the suburbs. Clear lake is the city and the suburbs. River Oaks feels pretty darn suburban to me. And so does many parts of residential montrose for that matter. Thus, the real question is where are the suburbs, and where are they not? Well, 50 years ago, the Heights was definitely the suburbs and not the city, the 610 loop was not defined, and the only real

[2112]

Inner City = Inner Loop

My opinion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess Uptown Houston is not the city then.

[westguy]

Where does that put Bellaire, West University, and Southside Place?

[2112]

Where does that put Bellaire, West University, and Southside Place?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I am sure you will find someone out there that would say it is the inner-city, and Uptown Houston is not.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[kjb434]

reply to pineda,

The developers that are developing in the areas where the grand parkway will pass know where the road will be placed. Preliminary drawings detail most of the path in that area. The developers will not build in the way of the parkway. They are builing in anticiapation of it. Figuring more people will buy with close ascess to the new parkway.

[UrbaNerd]

Oh, and another thing: I personally consider anything West of 610 , which is Uptown, all the way to Memorial, as inner city.

[pineda]

reply to pineda,

The developers that are developing in the areas where the grand parkway will pass know where the road will be placed. Preliminary drawings detail most of the path in that area. The developers will not build in the way of the parkway. They are builing in anticiapation of it. Figuring more people will buy with close ascess to the new parkway

At a recent meeting in the area held by Senator Jon Lindsay, all the developers were present and not only could they not even find their properties on the obtuse map (which made them all pretty mad) but they were all asking each other and Lindsay where in the world it would go, point is, nobody knew. There are five different proposed routes (with two alternates to those!) just for Segment F-2. Hopefully, when the Supplemental DEIS comes out late Spring/Summer 2005, we will all become more enlightened as to where the road will go. We will see.

the map of the future

[h-townrep]

You are right Uptown Houston is not considered inner city. That's why Transco tower was always known as the tallest building outside a CBD in the Nation. Right now I live in Atlanta and have traveled to Charlotte and @85 encompasses so many other cities that aren't close to Atlanta and whose impact don't come from any economics of Atlanta, such as Marietta. Same as Charlotte and for DC, it encompasses two large cities, it goes around both DC and Baltimore. Ive driven the whole 285 and 610 and it takes longer to go around 610 than 285 or the one in Charlotte.

Inner City has always been basiccally where your surface streets start intertwining with each other such not because of loop that extends out. If that was the case, does that mean New York and Vegas don't have an inner city cause they don't have a complete freeway loop.

As for Houston the inner city is inside the loop and a couple miles outside the loop, it depends on the surface streets. There's only an inner loop if there is an outer one too.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Now... wait just one second! I for one would consider anything out side of the loop outer Houston... SUBURBAN. This might just reflect on some urbanites poor opinion of suburbs, and the fact that they won't admit that land around Meyerland, Tanglewood, TC Jester & Jersey Village, the Port, etc, etc, is suburban. Here in OKC, we do not have a sprawling system of spokes. We have a sprawling sytem of half loops, segments, spurrs, etc, etc, expressways, and so on, some of which we are still building. The only part of OKC that I would consider urban, or inner city, is everything in the first loop (made up by 74th Street [now I 240], I 44, I 35, I 40) and the second loop(made out of an ark in I 44, Broadway [now called I 235] and the Crosstown Expressway [now called I 40] I consider land between the Crosstown and and the new, proposed I 40 to be neutral between these two looped areas, but yet still urban). Places in these 2 loops, are on average probably 70 years old in the second loop, and 60 years old in the first loop. The first "ward" if you will is a huge ghetto. The second ward, houses historically preserved homes, a booming midtown district, and a tright gay ghetto. This is what an inner city environment is. I would say that, given examples and reasoning, that only the inner loop + the Galleria is inner city. The Galleria even is considered the world's largest suburban skyline, conoting it off to be outer city, but I would aqctually consider it inner city. As soon as you traverse the loop, you are probably on a lushly landscaped pkwy, a broad blvd, or a freeway. You are in the suburbs.

[713 To 214]

^ I asy inside the 610 Loop is the inner city in Houston. But, what is the point of this discussion?

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

We are debating whether or not the Beltway is the boundary of the inner city, or whther it's the loop.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Yes.

[2112]

Now... wait just one second! I for one would consider anything out side of the loop outer Houston... SUBURBAN. This might just reflect on some urbanites poor opinion of suburbs, and the fact that they won't admit that land around Meyerland, Tanglewood, TC Jester & Jersey Village, the Port, etc, etc, is suburban. Here in OKC, we do not have a sprawling system of spokes. We have a sprawling sytem of half loops, segments, spurrs, etc, etc, expressways, and so on, some of which we are still building. The only part of OKC that I would consider urban, or inner city, is everything in the first loop (made up by 74th Street [now I 240], I 44, I 35, I 40) and the second loop(made out of an ark in I 44, Broadway [now called I 235] and the Crosstown Expressway [now called I 40] I consider land between the Crosstown and and the new, proposed I 40 to be neutral between these two looped areas, but yet still urban). Places in these 2 loops, are on average probably 70 years old in the second loop, and 60 years old in the first loop. The first "ward" if you will is a huge ghetto. The second ward, houses historically preserved homes, a booming midtown district, and a tright gay ghetto. This is what an inner city environment is. I would say that, given examples and reasoning, that only the inner loop + the Galleria is inner city. The Galleria even is considered the world's largest suburban skyline, conoting it off to be outer city, but I would aqctually consider it inner city. As soon as you traverse the loop, you are probably on a lushly landscaped pkwy, a broad blvd, or a freeway. You are in the suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, if I understand the logic here, "inner-city" has been decreed to ONLY exist inside the 610 loop? Is that what I am hearing? So, lets say, if the 610-loop was instead built 4-miles farther out in radius. Then, by this definition, the

[kjb434]

QUOTE

reply to pineda,

The developers that are developing in the areas where the grand parkway will pass know where the road will be placed. Preliminary drawings detail most of the path in that area. The developers will not build in the way of the parkway. They are builing in anticiapation of it. Figuring more people will buy with close ascess to the new parkway

At a recent meeting in the area held by Senator Jon Lindsay, all the developers were present and not only could they not even find their properties on the obtuse map (which made them all pretty mad) but they were all asking each other and Lindsay where in the world it would go, point is, nobody knew. There are five different proposed routes (with two alternates to those!) just for Segment F-2. Hopefully, when the Supplemental DEIS comes out late Spring/Summer 2005, we will all become more enlightened as to where the road will go. We will see.

the map of the future

My company manages and assiste developers in MUD 368 just east of SH 249 along Tomball road. A 5 level stack is planned between the grand parkway and SH 249. The aligment is know through the MUD currently and we are designing the developments around there to accompany the proposed parkway. One ramp will pass over a church parking lot at 249. The alignment will parrallel just south of Boudreaux Road in this area.

Developers that have good relations with TxDOT, GPA, the City of Houston, and Harris County know where the primary location of the parkway will be placed.

In the spring area, the parkway will not bypass and go to the Woodlands. The bridge for the parkway is currently being built over Spring Creek by Riley Fuzzel Road. This bridge is being design to accomadate the parkway in the future.

[nkob44]

I grew up in a Midwestern suburb and there, "inner city" was not a desirable address... Let's just say that I wouldn't tell folks outside of Houston that I live in "inner city Houston."

The Midwest and Northeast major cities typically have a clear distinction between their urban areas vs. suburbs. For example, when you drive east toward downtown St. Louis, you clearly see the point when you enter what's known there as "the inner city..." A very visual distinction IMO. And it gets worse when you cross over the Mississippi into East St. Louis. Of course, St. Louis (city and county) have something called zoning . Only thing I can liken it to here in Houston is driving on I-10 East around the ship channel or parts of I-45 on the east side in the loop. There is no commute into St. Louis City (from any direction) that is like the beautiful Memorial Drive commute into downtown Houston. Clayton Road maybe but not with the beautiful trees...

I just continue to view Houston as a series of wheels - sprawling, sprawling, sprawling. Inner Loop will always be Inner Loop to me, with lots of variety depending upon the "quadrant" you're in. Uptown is urban, very urban to me, but is Uptown. Not a bad thing. That said, I don't have a hangup though about living "exactly in the Loop..." I would take living "near" the Loop given the right location for our circumstances.

Just my two cents worth --