HoustonIsHome

I agree. Seems perfect for the area to me. Mainly empty lots and single story buildings in that area.Glad that this area is finally getting done love. With Skyhouse, Allied and now this makes a total of 4 new building between 10 and 25 floors throw in Alliance and Houston House and that makes 6 residential buildings in the SE part of town. That boosts the residential in the area to about 1500 units. Not bad considering the past few decades. Stupid Alliance and Fingers need to reconsider their lower rise apartments. Anyway glad to see downturn turn around

Chase sticks out right smack in the SKYLINE DISTRICT and this building if built would be in an area where the tallest buildings are half as task as the tallest in the SKYLINE DISTRICT. For reference One Park Place would be only 1/3 the height of this tower and OPP is a prominent tower. The tower would be almost 3 times the height of the Lyondell Basell tower, the Fulbright Tower or the Houston center towers. The Four seasons is only 30 floors. And let's not forget the George RBrown. GRB covers 11 blocks so it is a huge fixture in that area. At 100 feet GRB would bee almost 15 times shorter. You would probably have to take pictures from the beltway in order for a building that tall in that location to not stand out. Coming in from 45N Chase sticks out from past 610 and this would be 400 feet taller than chase. That's like placing Pennzoil Place on top of Chase. That's double the height of Shell Plaza our Heritage Plaza. Standing out is not necessarily a bad thing (especially if the building is nicely done) but Ray Charles could tell you that a building that tall would stand out on that side of downtown

I think the parking spots on that side of town are going to be goners anyway. A lot of residential popping up east of main. I Dunno, a building that tall would definitely change the symmetry of downtown. But as you say, it would be nice if it was built and attracted more development. It's a shame that the first and second biggest companies in Texas, chose suburban campuses instead of building downtown, but cest la vie. 102 floors!!!!! That would be something. Chase stands out a lot and its on the tall side of downtown. A 102 floor on that of town would Look sooo much taller. Would do some Williams tower kind of sticking out

With the new building looking so illuminated I hope thus will spur some more interesting lighting on the older buildings. Otherwise this and Hines will stick out like sore thumbs. I am not talking about gaudy light shows like some cities put on, but something a little prettier than the somber glow we normally have.

I forgot to ask about those. They are very close to the Halliburton Headquarters

Here is a parking map of downtown where I identify 5 spots where I think good squares would go. The boundaries for the squares are in red The 1st one is next to Minute made where I think the Fingers apartments are supposed to go. It is bounded by Crawford, Caroline, Texas and Congress. There are few building on the 9 block site that can be kept and incorporated into the square, but most of the space right now is empty. It would be two blocks north of the green/Purple lines and three blocks east of the red line. Prairie and Preston are already blocked off by Minute Maid so the traffic is already limited The 2nd one would be just north of discovery green. It would be bound by Avenida de Las Americas (George R Brown), Capitol (light rail), La Branch and Walker (Discovery Green). The Green/ Purple line would go right through the square. I think Hotels are currently planned for the lots. Crawford and Jackson are already cut off by GRB and Capitol and Rusk will have reduced traffic due to the rail, so this will have reduced traffic in all directions The 3rd could be the area bound by La branch, Lamar, Caroline and Bell. This would be between Green Street, Four Seasons hotel, Park Place, Disco Green, Hilton Hotel, Toyota Center etc. Dallas, Lamar and Clay are already blocked by GRB and Toyota center so there isn't much through traffic. The 4th would probably be called Bell Square because it would totally surround Bell station. It would be bound by Leeland, Travis, Clay and Fannin. The South east block is slated for a residential complex. Just south of that is Sky House, Houston House is further east, The Savoy would be immediately South, Exxon would be immediately west, their new plaza would tie in nicely, The Days inn Reno would be south west . The 5th would be that 9 to 12 block area between Hamilton, St Joseph (Maybe as far as Pierce), Leland and Crawford. This is the most underutilized area of downtown. lots of potential for anything here. Something really major could go here

wow. I am surprised by how much I like it.

Ok I am going to ask a few questions, but so that you don't think I am being mean with all these questions let me say now I am impressed with the plan. I especially like the ring of Palm trees. Ok so when you say the blocks remain the same do you mean the buildings and streets stay as is including the street between Valero and Burger king? The southern blocks are huge while the blocks that Valero and Aladdin are on are tiny. I like the L shaped building idea, it would work well to create the enclosed feel of squares. So would the buildings be behind the palm trees? Remember that giant chandelier that they put up for the Pride parade? What if a giant gaudy thing like that is installed in the center of your square? :D

This is a very interesting read on creating public urban spaces: http://www.pps.org/reference/reference-categories/placemaking-tools/ It has a break down on town square with elements similar to mine: http://www.pps.org/reference/reference-categories/squares-articles/ They list square that need work and the two major areas they have problems with are the same aspects of Market square that I criticize (Busy streets and poor interaction with surroundings): http://www.pps.org/reference/underperformingus/ but not to be all negative they list what they feel are the 12 best squares in North America. Here are excerpts of why they feel these are the best. They kind of jive with why I think Market square does not give the feeling of a square: 1. Jackson Square, New Orleans Yes there is History in Market Square and the bars around it is neat, but where is the interaction? Where is the street level presence. Nothing welcomes you into or draws you to Market Square. Its just a park that does its own business. 2. Rockefeller Plaza, NY This is what Market Square needs. It needs to be turned into a larger destination. Not the park, but the surroundings. 3. Pioneer Courthouse Square Some of you jumped on my suggestion of designing a public space from nothing but it seemed to have worked well in this ^ case. 4. Campus Martius, Detroit 5. Union Square, New York 6. Bryant Park, New York 7. Rittenhouse Square, Philadelphia Rittenhouse Square is a gem in the heart of Philadelphia: a green, leafy oasis, bounded by Walnut Street, 18th and 20th Streets, Locust and Spruce. A variety of buildings, most of them architecturally notable, surround the park: elegant turn-of-the-century apartment buildings, brownstones, and the mansions that make up the Curtis Institute and the Art Alliance, as well as modern high-rises. The strip of Walnut Street near Rittenhouse Square features a good selection of upscale shops and restaurants, but the other streets near the park are more welcoming.The space is among the best-used public spaces in the United States. Furthermore there is a sense of community here: an interaction between the habitues of the park so that you actually feel this is the City of Brotherly Love after all. People recognize each other and life here has a comfort and allure that has almost vanished everywhere else in the city and the country. The community’s general affluence does 8.) and 9.) Portsmouth Square and Washington Square, San Francisco 10. Square St Louis in Montreal 11. The Squares of Savannah 12. Washington Square, NY So there you have it. Where is Houston's Square???

Don't apologize, tell us more. Just to be clear, you are talking about the following blocks (going clockwise): Aladdin to Uchi on the north east Smoothie King to Ruggles on the south east Half priced books, Specs, Papa Johns and jack in the box on the south west on the north east would it be just the Valero or would you include the Cafe behind and Burger King across Lincoln?? Close off Lincoln? Would you divert traffic away from the intersection or have a roundabout or something in the center? traffic access to that area is horrible. If the underground parking is located under the square a good idea would probably be running the intersection underground at different levels so that flow would unimpeded. Kind of like a stack interchange but underground-- with Montrose being on level one and Westheimer on level two and a public transport level on three. No visible pass-trough traffic on ground level, but also no retail below ground. Who would be the statue in the middle of the square? a drag queen? lol

It depends on what the new developments are. The west side of downtown is largely office workers from miles and miles away. The East side is developing lots of residential and stadia. If they have to drive from home to get to the west, but for the east they are already home so they would not have to drive to get there. a developed east side does not necessarily mean more traffic if a lot of the development is residential. As for Market square, I don't know. Maybe I will change my mind after Hines and International tower goes in. At that point most of the bus traffic along Travis and Milam would be rerouted to northline so that may also help, as for now Market square doesn't IN MY OPINION have the feel of a square

I don't think I said traffic is bad (I might have, my memory is not what it used to be). I think streets like Louisiana, Smith... have bad traffic. Milam and Travis has heavy traffic because of 45. Again where market square sits is not as lazy as the east dude if downtown. I cross streets on the east side without more than a glance. West of Main is much busier

I am in that area just about everyday. And to me its busy. I am usually along Milam in the mornings (9ish) and Travis in the afternoons (5ish) and both are heavy with traffic and I cant imagine them with less lanes. Congress I could see with less lanes. Preston too. But Travis and Milam seems really busy to me.

The initial ridership will be low because the rail is going to open before the buses it is supposed to replace gets rerouted. The 14, 44, 56, 102, 66, 09 and about 5 others are supposed to terminate at northline instead of downtown. Riders would then take the redline downtown. So for a while the redline while be without these transfers. The 56 alone competes with the Westheimer and other SW buses for highest ridership. The 56 runs about every 15 mins and is usually packed. It alobe while ferry 5000 people to the rail. Before a year is out I would expect the ridership on this line would be between 12k and 17k. The east line should be heavy too. There are tons of buses that head Harrisburg way. These buses are not high on ridership like the 56 or the westheimer buses but the variety and frequency of buses warrants the line. The SE line in my opinion will have the lowest ridership of the 3. There are a few high ridership buses that go that way but I didn't see plans for metro rerouting them. These buses go to Sunnyside, Southmore/Bellfort/UH etc. I think they will be like the 11 and run concurrent with the lines. It will be very interesting once the lines get rerouted because usually underserved areas get better coverage.

I don't want to be rude but are you familiar with these places? TMC has far far far less parking than any comparable employment center in Texas. Why do you think the rail is so heavily used in TMC? Most workers park at Smithlands and ride the rail in. That's how urban centers work, and like it or not that is how core centers in Houston is heading as it gets more and more dense. As for the Stadia downtown you are mistaken too. The streets on that side of town are sleepy compared to Smith, Louisiana, Milam, Travis, Fannin, San Jac.... Plus there are not adequate parking as you imply. Its a mess during huge events. Have you try riding the rail when Houston is having a big sporting event? The flood of people is crazy. A draw for people may be a draw for motorist, but I will reiterate, these people need not need to drive IN the square to get to the square. They may be any of the 200,000 people who work downtown or the 400,000 people who ride metro or the 200,000 people who live within 2 miles of downtown or the millions who visit each year

Which two? I cant imagine narrowing any of them. Travis and Milam handles traffic to and from 45 along with a ton of metro buses, so it is kinda sandwiched in a busy area already.

not necessarily. You don't have to drive there. Thousands of people park somewhere else and ride the train to TMC or to the sports complexes so driving right up to something is still thinking in the past. they can, but this utopia would also include Tourists in nearby areas, tourist from other areas, residents in the immediate area (remember the area is growing rapidly), and residents who come in from other areas by PT. like I said, you don't have to drive to get there, and even if you did, you can park near and walk or take public transportation. You do know that just about every city has these things right?I don't know what you are taking about unsolvable problem. You mean to tell me you have never taken the train to minute Maid or Reliant? I don't know why you are making this so difficult. People use public transportation and walk everyday. The numbers on park And ride per day is like tens of thousands. The rail is at 35k plus, all together metro carrys 400k. I don't see what's so complicated

That's why I said Discovery Green has had missed opportunity. It has only one street with real traffic. But it has nothing but concrete walls all around. Market square would be nicer if Milam and Preston was more like congress and if those streets were not all so heavy with traffic. Union Square in SF has a busy street too, but like you said, its still not all busy streets. I think that is the Problem Cleveland its having with their Tiwn Square too. It is surrounding by a perfect mix of buildings but it is bisected by busy streets.

You don't think Downtown can create something along the lines of Market street but more reliant on buses and rail? And something with Downtown as a destination in mind? Not just another darn park. Something that identifies just as much with the surroundings as it does with whats in it.

Sugar land and The Woodlands come close, but they are still car centric. It would be nice if they included a better public transportation componentYes, narrow streets or blocked off streets help make better squares. And it's not a matter of not disagreeing, I said what I was proposing is an urban square, a place of heightened pedestrian activy. I said from the start that Market Square doesn't create that feel so it doesn't mange sense bringing it up unless you propose blocking off Preston, Milam and Travis, and I know that would never fly. The only places reduced car traffic would work would be places where it is already reduced (near Main Street Square, next to Minute Made Park, South East Downtown. Its not an agree or disagree thing. Travis won't be shutting down any time soon and having to cross done of the busiest streets downtown isn't creating what I proposed- the feel of an urban square.

Awesome idea Cloud. Its ideas life this we need to draw people/ give people a reason to go downtown.

I kind of figured, but it was still fun teasing. What is funny is that the traffic argument is hardly used for poor areas. What? Poor people don't mind traffic? The thing is that area is developing fast. Density increases are inevitable that close.

All off the questions you asked are answered in the posts above.

On the contrary, I have been saying the opposite. When you guys keep going on and on about market square I keep repeating that just having stuff near doesn't mange the area a square. Im the one who keeps saying its the sum of the parts and how they interact with each other that makes it a good square. I disagree with you because the block you propose would be in the exact same situation as Market Square, i.e. it will not have that close in intimate feel of a square because it will divided by four busy streets. You guys seem to think the square is the central part only. The square includes the inner square and the outer square of buildings. Busy streets inbetween the inner and outer squares = failed square

What do you mean trust you? Kid I have forgotten more cities than you probably will ever visit. If you care to read what I wrote you will see that what you are trying to school me in is exactly the same thing that I wrote