Houston19514

Thanks for the update, and welcome! Be careful. Some people around here don't much like to hear good things about Houston. ;-)

Sorry man, but it is you who is being defensive and childish. I just asked some questions out of genuine curiosity, and instead of just sharing your thoughts and knowledge, you had to go on the attack. Not every question is an attack or attempt to start an argument. Asking questions is how we learn. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted; but, seriously, I tried to explain that to you in my second post in this conversation when I told you I was not trying to be antagonistic. I was just trying to be a little humorous by tweaking you on the "people talking about architecture all the time" thing. But for the record you did indeed say "you will hear such conversations all the time", and also "these kinds of conversations were floating around constantly." (Sorry if some might have taken you at your word.) My point about the BSA, since you obviously missed it, was that it is the AIA branch for the Boston area. Quite a different thing from the Rice Design Alliance. I did not say or imply that the RDA was in any way better than or equal to the BSA. They are totally different animals, thus NOT comparable. The mere existence of the RDA, and its fairly active schedule indicates that there might be more interest in architecture and design in Houston than you are willing to give it credit for. I asked out of curiosity if there was an organization comparable to the RDA. As I just explained, the BSA is not comparable. Houston, too, has a local AIA organization, which is comparable to the BSA; Again, that is not to say or imply that it is as good as or as big as or as world-renowned as the BSA. As to Houston not being a larger city, yes we all know that the city of Houston is larger than the city of Boston. But we also know that this forum generally speaks of metro areas. Indeed, this entire discussion has been about the Boston metro area as if it was all "Boston." (See, e.g., the fact that your "Boston" experiences took place in the suburbs.) Talk about splitting hairs... As to trying to derail a serious discussion, take a look in the mirror. As I said earlier, I asked serious questions and was answered with attacks, wild overstatements and non-answers. I have attempted on a couple of occasions to steer it back to the real point of the thread. To no avail with you. And you don't think that the appearance of regular columns in the newspaper with quality, well-written reviews of architecture and design could spur some more interest in design and architecture??? If that is really the case, then why would we give a damn if the Chron ever ran an article about architecture or design? Is it just some badge of honor to make us feel mature, like Boston? ;-)

I think the lack of a Chronical architecture critic perhaps more of a cause, than just an indicator... I know you don't like the new courthouse, and I'm not sure what other major projects you think are of low quality, but architecture, good and bad, applies to minor projects as well and in that category, I think Houston is seeing some good work. Some of the projects at UH are quite good, IMO. And in the more major category, 2727 Kirby appears quite good (assuming it really is under construction). I think the proposed Intermodal Terminal looks pretty exciting. Some of the new buildings in the Medical Center have been good. I think there is a tendency for people (and it seems to apply especially to Houstonians) is to focus only on the bad stuff at home and only on the good stuff away from home. Part of that is the fact that you see all the bad stuff at home, but mostly just the good stuff from out of town, so we tend to forget that those other towns have plenty of bad and mediocre architecture too.

Calm down man. I did NOT say that Houston's architectural scene (whatever that is) is comparable to Boston's. I don't doubt for a minute that Boston has a larger, more mature architectural scene... for starters, it's a larger, more mature city. I'm just not buying your story about all of Boston going around having conversations about architecture "all the time". Nor do I propose we attempt to create such a freaky atmosphere in Houston. And FYI, from their own website: "The BSA is the eastern Massachusetts regional association of approximately 4,000 public, professional and affiliate members and is the largest branch of the American Institute of Architects" (sounds pretty much like an organization of architects to me...) Back to the point, if I may... I asked how you would envision a greater public interest in architecture to manifest itself... I'm just not believing that Houston will EVER have people sitting around discussing architecture all the time as you say they do in Boston. Realistically, that is only going to occur all the time or even on a regular basis within certain relatively small groups of people who for one reason or another have a special interest in design and/or architecture. Hmmmm... imagine that. Doesn't quite fit H-Town Man's description of life in NYC, does it? ;-)

It is indeed quite too funny for words that a person cannot ask for a simple and factual update on a construction project without you and your ilk (Dallsboi pay attention here) taking it as some sort of nefarious attack on poor little Dallas and your hallowed and miraculous Victory Park. There has been a lot of speculation and a good amount of just plain incorrect information (eg, DMN's statement last year that Victory Tower was under construction...) about this project. Excuse me for attempting to get to the bottom of it, so to speak.

Houston also has an organization of architects. A rather different thing from the RDA. One of the things that occurred to me when you initially asked the question about how to promote more interest, was to patronize and encourage others to patronize the new gallery space that the society of architects opened in Bayou Place. (and also patronize and encourage others to patronize the many activities of RDA). Can you name 4 or 5 of those publications in Boston that are comparable to Cite? I'd like to take a look a them.

Back on subject. I really like the buildings UH has been putting up. Good designs.

It appears to me that the construction shown in that picture would be for the parking structure (which will also have retail space on the street level). At least according to the plans shown on Victory's website, the tower would be to the the north what is shown in that picture. I could easily be wrong on this, but I don't think I have seen ANY pictures of any construction activity on the north end of the site (where the Tower will be, along Olive Street). All of the pictures I have seen are shot at an angle excluding the north end of the site, and only getting that portion of the site basically across Victory Park Lane from the shorter, south portion of the W, and that area, of course, is where the parking garae is going, not the Tower.

The Chron article was poorly written (now, there's a surprise!) but they sort of accidentally hinted that at least one of the possibilities is having the stadium downtown with the practice field/community soccer field complex at at Wortham. Does anyone know how much land such a complex would typically require? I hope I am not the only one who has thought of just downsizing the golf course and adding the soccer complex, rather than eliminating the golf course altogether. I've done a little research since my initial post. As the article says, the Wortham Golf Course property is 150 acrse. The entire Pizza Hut Park complex in Frisco is 117 acres. Removing the stadium from that complex (and building it downtown next to MMP) would appear to cut almost 40 acres from the complex. So it would appear that a soccer complex similar to the Pizza Hut Park complex (sans stadium) would only need about 1/2 the Wortham property. Downsize and upgrade the golf course and build the soccer complex at Wortham with the stadium downtown (connected to the Wortham complex via the East End Metro GRT line.) Everyone wins!

I'm pretty sure Vic was talking about the taxpaying property owners in the neighborhood of the University, not the taxpayers of the state as a whole. But I also think Vic's post was pointless, as it is my understanding that the university doesn't have any plans to acquire much additional property, if any, whether tax-delinquent or tax-paying.

Source? It would be good to see some soft-goods retail

They announced all the ground breakings last May??? I'm sorry but that makes no sense... I'm not looking for a ceremonial shovel in the dirt. But if you go to the Victory Park website, click on "The Story" and then on "Timeline", you will see that they show dates of ground breakings for American Airlines Center, the W, The Terrace, Vista, Victory Plaza buildings, The House, (and oddly, none of them occurred in May of '06). It seems unlikely that they would show all of those but not show a groundbreaking for the largest, tallest building in the project. (And the timeline appears to be quite up to date. There is an entry as recent as January 18.)

Does anyone know the actual status of Victory Tower? I read somewhere that the current work in the hole is just for building the parking garage that will be attached to the Tower, and that the Tower construction had not started. That makes a lot of sense, because I cannot find a word about a Victory Tower groundbreaking anywhere on Victory's website. Their project calendar seems up-to-date and has pretty faithfully listed every major groundbreaking so I'm thinking they will surely post the groundbreaking of the largest building in the project. Does anyone have any information (other than the DMN's columnist's clearly incorrect statement in an article earlier last year that the tower was under construction)?

I guess I'm still not getting the part about spitting in the BoA developer's face. I recently read a biography of Philip Johnson and one thing that was clear about him was that he wasn't necessarily consistent in his comments and statements from time to time. He played to his audience, if you will, and would say whatever he thought might impress the audience... Alll that being said. I'm not sure what it really has to do with Houston's archtictural heritage. I love both of those buildings (except for the way the BoA building has no connection with the sidewalk traffic)

Interesting. Do you have sources for any of that? Actually, I had always heard that he (and Burgee) designed the RepublicBank Tower (now BoA) so that it would not completely hide the Pennzoil towers. And honestly, given the step-down design of BoA, that version seems to make more sense. But in any event, given a commission to design a million + square foot tower on the adjoining block, it is a little hard to imagine how he could have avoided at least partiallly blocking Pennzoil. And I guess I'm missing something... how did he supposedly spit in the face of the developers of BoA?

I was not meaning to be antagonistic. I'm just trying to understand why you think people in Houston don't think/talk about buildings and architecture as much as those in other cities? No fight being looked for. Or perhaps more to the point what makes you think people in other cities spend their time talking about buildings? Do you spend your time in Houston in similar ways and with similar groups of people as you did in the Boston area? Perhaps it was something unique about the people you were around at that time in that place, rather than anything peculiar about either Houston or Boston. Does Boston have an organization such as the Rice Design Alliance, or a magazine such as Cite? And there is no reason to limit this comparison to Boston. Do most other cities have comparable organizations and publications? And FWIW, I'll take the new Harris County Courthouse over the Boston City Hall any day ;-)

Well color me skeptical about how often one hears New Yorkers, Bostonians and Chicagoans having conversations about particular buildings. I have spent a fair amount of time in each of those cities and I can honestly say I have never heard such a conversation, let alone "all the time". I'm not sure I buy that people in those cities discuss their buildings more often than Houstonians. As to the paper... the Chron doesn't have an architecture critic for the same reason they don't have a real estate reporter worthy of the name. The Chron is America's worst major newspaper.

Try to keep up ;-) The item was tagged at the January 24 meeing, passed at the January 31 meeting. (Sevfiv's link above was to the January 31 AGENDA, not the minutes. ) Had it been tagged at last week's meeting, it would appear on this week's agenda. I can't find it there. See also Guidry News. Apparently Guidry News had a reporter at the meeting. Can you imagine?

LOL Yes, the real estate "reporters" are too busy pulling press releases off the fax machine (or opening their e-mails) to be bothered with anything so mundane as "pulling permits" (or in this case, reading city council agendas and minutes). God forbid they actually do some actual news gathering. "Most" people may not be interested in the development of Houston Pavilions, but I'll bet that most people who follow development and real estate matters, and most people who bother reading the Chron's real estate columns, would indeed be very interested to learn that building permits have been issued. No exhaustive details are really necessary to get that news out.

and yet your response to good factual information proving the project is alive and well is, shall we say, less than gleeful... Go figure. (and BTW, I'm still waiting to hear your theory on why a dead project is getting building permits... Jmancuso, Tierwestah, feel free to jump in with your theories as well...)

I have no idea what point you were trying to make by re-posting Ethanra's post about the 2-5-2007 groundbreaking. But if you read carefully (read more, post less), you will see it fits in with the reality of a live project very logically. Ethanra allegedly got that e-mail from the HP rep on January 23, when they surely expected to receive their construction permits from City Council at the scheduled meeting the next day. But the next day, two councilors put a hold on the permits, delaying the approval until January 31, logically also delaying ground-breaking. Again I ask, any theories why a "dead" project would go through the hassle and expense of seeking construction permits? Even more curious... the crack real estate reporters in Houston are apparently clueless about it (or don't consider it newsworthy that a project of this scale and importance for downtown Houson has received building permits). Sheesh.

How would a big public interest in architecture manifest itself? And why do you assume it does not exist?

Hey 77017: Do you have any theories about why a dead project would be seeking construction permits from the city? (and, ironically, being granted those permits on the very day you made the quoted post...) Maybe you should take your own advice and "read more, post less". I guess the developer, the city council, the general contractor, and the architecture firm are also among those who are "dopes who don't know this project's dead". Not to mention House of Blues, Lawry's The Prime Rib, Lucky Strike, etc etc.

Here's another piece of positive information: HOK (the primary architecture firm on the project recently added an architect to its Houston officewho "will have the title of project manager, leading the effort in the management of Houston Pavilions, a mixed-use project in downtown Houston. " And even more info that suggests the project is alive: From the January 24, 2007 Houston City Council meeting: "An ordinance issuing a permit to Houston Pavilions, L.P. for a major downtown development was tagged by Pam Holm and Ronald Green. The project includes an 80-foot-wide aerial pedestrian walkway with retail shops above and within the Fannin street right of way between Polk and Dallas Streets; an 80-foot-wide aerial pedestrian walkway with retail shops above and within the San Jacinto street right of way between Polk and Dallas Streets; an 80-foot aerial pedestrian walkway above and within the Polk Street right of way between Main and Fannin Streets; and several other amenities." And even better: From the January 31, 2007 Houston City Council meeting: "The city council voted to issue a permit to Houston Pavilions L.P. for a major construction project. The permit includes, "constructing using, occupying, operating, maintaining and repairing two building footings, one each within the Polk and Fannin and the Polk and San Jacinto Street rights of way; an 80-foot-wide aerial pedestrian walkway with retail shops above and within the Fannin street right of way between Polk and Dallas Streets and an 80-foot-wide aerial pedestrian walkway with retail shops above and within the San Jacinto street right of way between Polk and Dallas Streets, an 80-foot aerial pedestrian walkway above and within the Polk Street right of way between Main and Fannin Streets, six sets of stairs to access various building entrances within and along the Dallas Street right of way, one set located between Main and Fannin Streets, two sets located between Fannin and San Jacinto Streets, and three sets located between San Jacinto and Caroline Streets; four sets of stairs to access various building entrances located within and along the Polk Street right of way, three sets located between Fannin and San Jacinto Streets and one set located between San Jacinto and Caroline Streets; and two sets of stairs to access various building entrances within and along the Caroline Street right of way, located between Polk and Dallas Streets." Seems logical that the one-week hold at City Council may have led to a delay in ground-breaking.

I can neither confirm nor deny that The Niche is full of it. ;-)