Houston19514

Well done. And thank you for the shot of reality. It has also been my understanding that the general contractor is already under contract as well.

Ritz-Carlton, baby!

Don't feed the trolls.

The block just south of Market Square Park comes to mind.

Ditto. ROFL. That was the funniest (and truest) post I've seen here in a very long time.

The University Line is not scheduled for completion until 2012.

BLVD Place

This is really exciting news. My only input is probably pretty obvious. More shops. A bookstore would be good, newstands, art galleries. The types of shops that cause people to linger and browse from shop to shop, mixed in with diners, cafes, along with the higher-end restaurants. I am not at all sorry to see the demise of some of the clubs. Fewer MBar-type clubs and more "neighborhood"-type establisments.

Cool links. Thanks. (And . . . so much for New Orleans being the "king of cargo shipping in the Gulf")

Yeah, according to the Port of New Orleans. Very unbiased source there. LOL What is the volume and value of exports through the Port of New Orleans? FWIW, for the Port of Houston in 2005, the numbers for exports were: 43.9 million tons valued at $51.3 Billion.

It would have to be a prety miniature version of Whole Foods or Central Market.... There is only 21,800 square feet TOTAL available for retail, and that is in two sections. The larger section is 18,800 square feet (and has been reserved for a specialty "gourmet grocery market" and wine merchant). Is he hoping to convince one of those companies to develop an entirely new concept?

You CANNOT be serious. I merely posted a caveat that was absolutely necessary to make your 16,750 number realistic, meaningful, and honest, and you insisted on arguing the point. You seem to enjoy assuming your own version of reality in order to make your arguments. There are probably more honest and more productive ways to win others over to your way of thinking.

Agreed. The village needs rail service. Plus the whole Upper Kirby district is becoming quite urban and would be well-served by a rail line.

I just pulled that number out of my hat. I thought that was obvious. But if we are divorcing the discussion from any timetable, it is not equine manure. Surely there WILL be 50,000 new apartments in the Houston area over some undefined time period. Yes, I know your point is that the sky is falling for apartment owners and throwing out the 16,750 number as if those apartments will all come on the market this year helps build your case, but it is simply not accurate to do so. If you want to talk about 16,750 new apartments, you have to also talk about the absorption that will occur (or not) during the same period of time during which those apartments will come on line. Otherwise, you're just talking nonsense. I realize we don't have firm numbers of what will be delivered this year. But one thing we do know, without coming anywhere near to "analysis paralysis" is that the number will be LESS than 16,750, probably significantly less. To refuse to acknowledge that is to present an inaccurate picture of the market.

Give it rest, man. The time frame was implied by asking about the rate of absorption, not to mention carrying the "17,000" number over from the other thread, which was entirely about the 2007 time frame. Without a time frame for the numbers, you're just babbling nonsense. We could just as easily say there are 50,000 apartments coming on line... My assertion was correct AND necessary, presuming you want a logical, fact-based discussion that leaves people with real, useful information.

LOL Alright, everyone. 713 to 214 has now laid down the law. NOBODY IS TO MENTION ANY OTHER PARTS OF ANY OTHER CITY IN THIS THREAD. Got it? \ Here's a thought, 713 to 214: If you want to make the rules, please just start your own forum. And by the way, anyone with an intimate knowledge of Greenway Plaza knows that on does not get the full picture of Greenway Plaza from Crescent's website, because they don't own everything there; Their website only covers the portions they own and operate.

Man, that would be perfect. (Although it would be even more perfect if it ran down, say, West Dallas to Kirby and then down Kirby to Reliant Park and meet up with the red line.)

Sorry, pal. For anyone who chooses to see, the elements of the two projects are fundamentally the same. Office space, hotels, a little retail (and enough with your silly claims to "international retail". Most of the retail going into Victory Park so far is of local derivation.) (And FWIW, I recognize that Victory has more retail, but it's hardly going to be a regional shopping area). And, yes, residential. I guess you've overlooked 14 and 15 Greenway Plaza, twin 30-story condominium towers. (So much for your "intimate" knowledge of Greenway Plaza.) In addition, a new apartment complex (the Metropole) is set to open soon, and I believe another is under construction. No residential to speak of???? It is to laugh. Oh, yes, throw in a sports arena. (Okay, so the arena at Greenway is now America's largest church...) So tell me again, exactly how is it that there is "no comparison"? Sure, Victory has more nightlife, but I don't think you would even contend that nightlife is the driving force, the raison detre, of the Victory development. I'll bet Greenway Plaza is more active on Sunday mornings, so what? Does that mean there is "no comparison" between the two? Get real. Absolutely, downtown Denver feels more "alive" on the sidewalks. But you are quite right also that Downtown Denver started its revitalization many many years before Houston did. And as a reminder, downtown Denver's revitalization did not happen overnight or without stumbles and setbacks along the way, either. I see a lot of similarities between the two, actually, and I think downtown Houston has been heading in the same direction, as downtown Denver

Yea, about 25-30 years ago.

Remember, people had every reason to fear that Victory was little more than a pipe dream as well. HP has not been on the boards nearly as long as Victory was before it finally got going. And as to your 4 points. (1) Obviously, Victory is newer. So much for the constant refrain we hear on this board about Dallas always being "ahead" of Houston. (2) To say Victory is connected by rail, I believe, is a bit of an overstatement. IIRC, the only rail to Victory currently is for special events at AAC. And BTW, Greenway Plaza will probably be connected by rail too (and it will be newer than Dallas's rail ;-) ) (3) It's more walkable??? (I'm not at all convinced of that. Greenway Plaza is a very lovely and walkable area. (4) Yes, Victory is "closer" to downtown. But it's not in downtown, so in my mind the relative closeness is almost irrelevant. As I have said before on this thread, I believe Victory will hurt downtown Dallas, just as Greenway Plaza surely hurt(s) downtown Houston. I would have thought Dallas developers/powers that be would have learned that lesson from Houston, and insisted on getting their arena IN downtown, rather than just NEAR downtown. But, in my opinion, they repeated the mistake that Houston made 30 years ago (and for that matter their own mistake in the location of Reunion Arena). Your comments about Houston needing to "keep up with the times and continue to build around its downtown..." strike me as curious. Have you been to downtown Houston in the past 10 years? The changes and construction that have occurred in that time are nothing short of remarkable.

It's more than just a food court. There are a few other shops in there as well (jewlery store, in addition to movie theaters. Before you get too carried away with your snippy little self, keep in mind that I said there a "little" retail.

Is there a firm start date for that project? Looks really cool.

I certainly will reserve final judgment until I see it in person and perhaps until it comes closer to completion. But I disagree with Rantanamo. First, Victory Park is working on its second phase, not its first. And I don't think it's looking like something great at all... To me it looks terribly underwhelming. Reminds me a little of some of the office parks in West Houston. Color me surprised that Rantanamo, of all people, thinks it looks great... has he ever had anything less than glowingly positive to say about any Dallas development, ever? ;-) There's an underground retail area. (It's not very big, but there are/were movie theaters there as well) Also, Tony's Restaurant is there.

Once again, the 16,750 number is "under construction." That is NOT the same as the number that will be delivered to the market this year. Just one quick example: The Sawyer Heights Lofts are under construction but I don't believe they are scheduled to be available for lease until 2008.

Before you slit your wrists... ;-) Keep in mind that it took quite a few years and redesigns to get the Victory project off the ground. Plus, the project is blessed with VERY deep-pocketed developers who didn't have to pledge their first-born to a finance company to start and an additional child each time they want to change a paint color ;-) Seriously, I'm guessing most of the Victory project probably would not be happening if the developer didn't have such deep pockets. I was set to be seriously envious too when I first started seeing the renderings on the Victory website, but as the buildings have been built and we've started to see pictures on this and other website, all jealousy has vanished. Perhaps it looks a LOT better in person, but in the pictures I've seen it looks pretty underwhelming, generic, and suburban-esque. As has been noted before, Houston did a Victory-type development 30 years ago. It's called Greenway Plaza. Arena, a little retail, hotels, luxury condos, yadda yadda yadda. Sure, Victory is a little flashier than Greenway Plaza; that's partly a function of the times and partly just Dallas being Dallas.