Houston19514

The first one is the Lofts at the Ballpark. The second one is the Humble Building Apartments (in the same complex as the Courtyard by Marriott and Residence Inn Hotels)

Good summary 27, but I must make one correction: You give at least an incorrect impression by saying that "most of these outlying that are incorporated also have more deed restrictions" at least implying that the outlying incorporated areas have more deed restrictions than outlying unincorporated areas. That is is not true. The deed restrictions are put in place by subdivision and planned community developers, not by the cities.

For example:

The Woodlands, unincorporated, HEAVY deed restrictions

Kingwood, incorporated, HEAVY deed restrictions

Atascocita, unincorporated, Heavy deed restrictions

Humble, incorporated, very mixed. Most areas probably not heavily deed restricted

The apartment is your best bet, so that you can explore and find what suites you.

Also, have you ever lived anywhere down here in the south? If not, you might be surprised that all the whining about the heat isn't unfounded. You can't say I didn't warn you...

Ps - I would look at not only the Woodlands to the north, but also:

NE - Kingwood (inside Houston city limits), Humble (incorporated), & Atascocita (unincorporated)

SE - Clearlake (inside Houston city limits) (I don't know the other nice areas down there )

S - Pearland or Friendswood (both individually incorporated suburbs)

SW - Sugarland & Missouri City (both individually incorporated suburbs)

W - Katy (incorporated), Cinco Ranch, Lakemont or Kelliwood (all unicorporated)

NW - Tomball (incorporated), Fairfield (unincorporated), or Jersey Village (incorporated)

I mention incorporated vs unincorporated for tax & police/fire/ems purposes. Here, living in an incorporated area generally (not always - but about 90% of the time) brings lower taxes & better police/fire/ems. Most of these outlying suburbs that are incorporated also have more strict deed restrictions, giving the neighborhood a more sterile look too. The school districts are divided a little different. None of the areas I listed have bad schools though.

Good Luck.

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According to the Kirby Coalition website, construction on Upper Kirby (from US 59 to San Felipe) is slated to begin in 2006.

Let me go over this again. There are only three possibilities for making money by flipping... In order for it to work, or even have the chance of working, at least one of these element must be present...

-- the flipper buys a property for a below-market price, such as in a distress sale (someone needing to sell so they can re-locate, a repossessed house, etc.) Midtownguy has assured us that Perry is NOT selling their townhouses for below-market prices.

-- Prices are sky-rocketing (and even that is problematic, because there's no reason to think Perry wouldn't keep it's prices in-line with the sky-rocketing prices)

-- Fraud (the re-sale is done based on a fraudulent appraisal, etc. Somewhat complicated and way beyond the scope of this posting).

Maybe you guys don't really understand what flipping is. Flipping is the re-selling of a property in the VERY short term, usually immediately. There is no time for market appreciation, etc. You keep telling us that people are buying townhouses for fair market value and "flipping" them for a profit. Given that we've established the initial sale is for Fair Market Value, a profitable flipping is well-nigh impossible... the only way for it to happen is to get lucky enough to find a foolish buyer willing to pay above Fair Market Value (and even then you might have to get a fraudulent appraisal).

Now, what you MAY be talking about is simply investors buying townhouses as investments, banking on rising property values in Midtown, leasing them out and hoping to sell them for a profit sometime in the medium-to-long term. I am quite certain that is happening... I've considered doing that myself, because I think Midtown may have a phenomenal future and these should be good investments. But that is NOT flipping.

^ Can you give me a source for the 8.52% and 7.21% growth rates?

My source is the US Census Bureau (combined with my calculator) According to the July 31, 2003 county estimates, when compared with the April 1, 2000 Census, the Dallas Combined Statistical Area grew by 6.75721 %. In the same period, the Houston Combined Statistical Area grew by 7.49594 %.

Well, if I were you, I'd be trying to do some business opposite these supposed townhouse flippers. You should be able to make a killing off of them, cause they aren't too bright.

Now, in the example you just gave... were there not still brand new Perry townhouses either in the same block or just around the corner in the price range of $150,000?

You are right, kz. I don't think there is really any indication that the Wolfe project will look anything like the "Riva" renderings, since those were published in connection with an earlier proposal for a redevlopment of the Pavilion by a group called something like "Urban Resort Properties." It seems like Wolfe's plans may not be far enough along to have renderings. I suspect they are shopping their general concept to prospective retail tenants and prospective office, hotel, condo, and apartment developers, and will generate physical plans and renderings once they have a better handle on what is feasible.

The question is... why would anyone in their right mind try to flip properties in an over-saturated market?

Midtownguy: Take a chill pill, man. I never suggested you were lying.

If I understand you correctly, you are telling me that people are buying up townhouses from Perry and other builders and immediately putting them back on the market, hoping to make a killing. This in a market generally agreed to be overbuilt, and where the builders' initial prices are fair market prices. I'm sorry, I just cannot make sense of this. The only way flipping works is if you buy for an extraordinarily low price (below-market) or if the market is under-built and prices are sky-rocketing. Cleary, neither is generally the case in Midtown Houston and it's hard to imagine there are many people who ever thought it might be the case.

Might I ask how you can tell a townhouse is being flipped by going around looking at those for sale? Just by finding some "new" Perry townhouses that aren't owned by Perry? Or by seeing a town house for sale that still looks new?

Again, I'm not calling you a liar, but without more evidence than a few new-looking townhouses on the market, I just find it too hard to believe there are enough people in the Houston real estate business, with the necessary money, to make this ignorant of a move. "Gee, I think I'll get rich by buying some new townhouses at market price, and then re-sell them as 'pre-owned' units." That, my friend, is not greed. That is stupidity. (and just to be clear, I'm referring to anyone who would try such a scheme, NOT to you, Midtownguy.)

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4.Houston will not surpass DFW in population unless there is some sort of economic collapse in the DFW metroplex at the same time there is some sort of economic boom in Houston. The reasons cities boom or bust is based on the local economic strength of cities - job growth, cost of living index, economic diversity, etc. The projections are pretty strong that DFW will continue to widen the population gap over Houston Metro because the DFW regional economy is one of the strongest in the nation... not just because people in Dallas "think" or "want" to be bigger than Houston. Houston also enjoys a strong economy, but the problem is that Houston has not been as successful in diversifying it's economy in the years since the oil industry collapsed. The DFW economy is one of the most resilient economies in the country, therefore it is less likely to suffer during times of economic recession and/or depression. In fact, during recent recessions, DFW actually retained its rapid growth. One projection I saw - and there are many out there - stated that the population of Houston Metro in 2030 will be around 7.2 million. DFW's projected 2030 population is 9.1 million. However, even as we speak they are tallying the latest population figures to be released in April. The growth rate in DFW is so brisk that they projections can't even keep up. For example. Fort Worth was not projected to hit 625,000 until 2010, but Fort Worth has probably already surpassed that number, or is very close to hitting it now - 5 years ahead of the projected date.

I'm sure some of you reading this will will see all this as some sort of a slap in the face to Houston. But in all honesty, the DFW area is in trouble because of the growth. Although infrastructure is in a 24/7 state of construction, they won't be able to keep up with the population demands and the air quality and transportation systems are going to lag behind which will created a difficult living environment. DFW has grown too quickly to keep up, so as the years go by traffic, congestion, and all sorts of other urban problems will become reality in DFW. These are not good things.

5. DFW is set to overtake Philly as the 4th largest metro area. It will probably happen in 2005 or 2006, if it hasn't already happened. Philly continues to slow down and DFW was only about 300,000 behind Philly in Jan 2003. DFW is adding over 150,000 per year (or somewhere close to that) therefore DFW should be neck and neck with Phily by now.

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Thanks for the unemotional fact-based posting. It was rather refreshing. Now, if I may quibble, just a bit. (All based on facts, no emotion here). Regarding the various projections of future populations. Most of those projections are based on the assumption that past growth rates will continue, which makes them almost meaningless. On the other hand, the most recent Census estimates show the Houston Metropolitan Area growing faster than the D-FW metropolitan area (measuring from 2000 to 2003). It will be interesting to see the next batch of estimates.

Your statement that D-FW is about to overtake Philly as the nation's 4th largest metro area, while possibly true, does not exactly give a full picture. The new census definitions cause some oddities when looking at what is now known as Metropolitan Statistical Areas. I think the more accurate and useful comparison is really to Combined Statistical Areas (CSA). In the case of D-FW (and Houston as well) almost the entire Combined Statistical Area is also in the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA); but in the case of many of the other largest metro areas, large chunks of the areas are left out of the core MSA. Thus, if you compare D-FW MSA to other MSAs, you are comparing almost the entire D-FW CSA to, for example, San Francisco without San Jose, etc; Boston without Worcester etc.; Washington DC without Baltimore. I believe the CSA rankings are as follows (using 2000 census numbers):

1. New York City

2. Los Angeles

3. Chicago

4. Washington-Baltimore

5. San Franscisco

6. Philadelphia

7. Boston

8. Detroit

9. Dallas-Fort Worth

10. Miami-Fort Lauderdale

11. Houston

It's likely that D-FW has overtaken Detroit as the eighth largest CSA since the 2000 census.

The MSA rankings, using 2000 census numbers:

1. New York City

2. Los Angeles

3. Chicago

4. Philadelphia

5. Dallas-Fort Worth

6. Miami-Fort Lauderdale

7. Washington DC

8. Houston

9. Detroit

10. Boston

11. Atlanta

12. San Franscisco

See what I mean? I can't take very seriously any ranking that says that both Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston are larger metropolitan areas than either Boston or San Francisco. As has been said before, "just because You WANT something to happen or WANT something to be true, it doesn't mean that it IS what you WANT it to be"

They opened one in Dallas, closed 6 months later. Food sucked and really bad layout. Great place to go for happy hour though. Good drink specials.

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They still have a Dallas location on their website... 4140 Lemmon Ave.

^

Thank you. It's great to see someone else finally recognizing that fact.

I know it's been mentioned before, but when was the last time voters went to the polls for zoning?  Maybe another petition is in order to try and get it back on a ballot.

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1993

Thanks to our moronic city leaders, we're going down the drain.

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It's postings like these that make this board so worthwhile...

Houston, one of the fastest-growing cities and metro areas in the country, is going down the drain... what in the world are you talking about???

Trophy, Thanks for the heads up. I'm single, and may wait it out. I love midtown.

  But, as I said in another post, the problem is that as soon as a a perry townhome goes up, a person or a company goes in and buys them pre-construction, then "flips" them for a higher price. The New York TImes recently wrote about this practice and how it's becoming a major way for people to invest.

 

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It is hard to imagine that there is any significant amount of "flipping" going on in Midtown. If new construction can be sold for higher prices, wouldn't Perry and the other builders price them accordingly?

Section 11.086 of Title 2 of the Texas Water Code seems to apply:

That's not true, you're probably thinking of the light rail campaign.  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I know it was over 10%.

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Maybe you should get the numbers in front of you before repeatedly making incorrect claims... In ten seconds you could do a search on the web and find sources telling you that, in fact, zoning lost by a margin of 52-48.

52-48

Yes, it was 52-48

And for everyone else here interested in the zoning issue. These are both links to some pretty interesting articles. I'd recommend we all read them.

Calm down everyone... that link took us to one listing for ONE of the units in the Edge complex. When one takes the 10 seconds required to look further, one finds that there are units listed starting at $144,500.

For the past couple of years the City Planning Dept. has been trying to pass an "Area Plan" ordinance that would allow neighborhoods to create design regulations and incentives for their area, the main area in mind being Main St., but so far it has been brought down by property rights opposition.  If you pass zoning, you don't have to have this battle - things like this simply get decided on whenever the zoning ordinance is revised. 

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Why would you think a zoning ordinance would eliminate such battles? If anything, it would probably increase the number of such battles. Every part of every zoning ordinance (including non-zoning items like design standards, etc) would have to be adopted by City Council or some zoning board. All of the "zones" would have to be defined and adopted by the City Council or zoning board. And then the real fun begins... when developers and builders and property owners and homeowners start appearing before City Council or zoning boards to seek variances.

Campaigns for local issues are decided by who has the advertising money.  In the 1993 (or was it '91?) zoning referendum, early polls showed that Houstonians favored zoning.  Then a large coalition of powerful developers hired Dennis Calabrese to design an advertising campaign that would scare Houstonians away from zoning.  The slogan he came up with was "The Only Thing Worse Than A Bad Plan Is No Plan At All."  The idea was to admit that planning in Houston was bad, but that with zoning it would be miserable, because the zoners didn't have a plan.  It didn't make a lot of sense, but it worked, and zoning lost by a huge margin.

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Zoning lost by a margin of 52-48.

The Crescent was not built AS A PART of the uptown revitalization project in Dallas.  It was built long before the Uptown District was even on the drawing board.  And just as an aside, the area around the Crescent has actually taken longer to develop than the rest of Uptown.  It STILL has empty lots around it.  With your argument, then the area around the new Hilton should be teaming with new highrise condos and apartment living.

Houston partnered with Post?  Not that I've ever heard of.  The Dallas partnership resulted in 14 large-scale complexes bearing the Post name in Uptown.  How many does Houston have in Midtown? One.  The partnership with Post existed for many years before the UID ever formed.

Dallas' Uptown WAS largely run down and abandoned.  The point is, it isn't now.

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Since you either don't really understand what the Post-Dallas "partnership" really amounted to, or just haven't desired to let us in on the little secret, I looked it up. Post Properties just got the city of Dallas to establish a TIF (Tax Increment Financing) zone to upgrade the area's infrastructure. I believe that is EXACTLY what Houston has done with the Midtown Tax Increment Reinvestment Zone.

Regarding your comments about the Crescent Court and the new Hilton... you are entirely misstating the "argument." I never suggested that a hotel, and a hotel alone, would cause booming revitalization. Regarding the Hilton, the "argument" would only be that promoting development in that area of downtown would be much easier with the Hilton present than it would be without the Hilton in the neighborhood. Personally, I think that's almost too obvious to spend time debating. And the Crescent Court is more than just a hotel; it also has office buildings and retail, which makes it an even stronger catalyst for redeveloping an area.

HOUSTON19514 -- Read my previous posts.  I outlined that in the late 80's (i think 1989) the City of Dallas partnered with Post Properties (they had a different name then) to create the Uptown Improvement District and taxing zone.  Post Properties built numerous apartment complexes in the area and helped turn Uptown into what it is today.

I'm looking for it right now, but there is a program where abandoned properties are sold by the city to developers at discounted rates if they agree to build low income housing on the land. I'll post it when I find it (the city redesigned their site and changed their url so my bookmark doesn't work anymore).

I personally think the Crescent doesn't count when considering Uptown Dallas development.  It was built there, not because they said "hey, lets build in Uptown", but because it was the closest to downtown they could get.  When the Crescent was built, the Uptown district didn't even exist.  It was formed in 1989... 16 years ago (but Uptown has looked great since before I moved there, which was in 2001).

I don't see where I'm trashing Houston at all... and it seems that everyone but the last two posts agree, for the most part, with my assesment.  Houston has problems.  Steal whatever ideas we can from the other cities.

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How does the Uptown Improvement District differ from the Midtown Management District? Is Houston not in fact doing the same thing? Right down to involving the very same apartment developer?

The Crescent doesn't count? How ridiculous is that? Of course it counts. Of course pre-existing development helps tremendously when you go in to start reinvigorating a community. All that proves is that the Uptown Improvement District had a huge head start, compared with where the Midtown Management District started out. Don't you think it's easier to develop and promote luxury apartment spaces in a neighbhorhood already blessed with a development like the Crescent Court, than in a neighborhood like midtown that was totally rundown and largely abandoned?

I am in absolute agreement that the two cities should look to each other for ideas and to make improvements. I cannot imagine where you got the idea that Houston in general has the attitude that it's perfect and never needs to look elsewhere for ideas.

Man, I just had a firehouse southwest philly last night! I didn't know they were closin! That's f****d up. Now I gotta drive 20 min. In any direction to get some good fast food. I could actually park and eat there! PARK!!! IN DOWNTOWN!!!! FOR FREE!!!!!! That's it. That's the last straw. If shamrock isn't built, game over for downtown. Game over.......

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It doesn't say anything about closing. The ebay information says they want to focus on other things and are hoping to find someone to buy the going business from them.

I remember not that long ago, this building was a run-down little coffee shop. We actually stopped in for coffee one time when we were staying at The Sam. And we commented about how that building, if cleaned up, could make a really cute little diner. From the description and pictures, it looks like they've done just that.

I don't think there will be anything taller in Uptown Houston in the near future, or for that matter, the far future. Certainly not an office building in the near future. I believe the vacancy rates are currently too high for any substantial new office construction.

I would also be quite surprised to see anything residential go higher than Transco, especially in the near future. Personally, I think Uptown would look better with more shorter buildings (in the 35-40-50-60 story range), to fill in the area and make it more dense and urban.

Having said that, I would love to see a 70 story residential building, but I'd prefer to see it go downtown.

Danes, what do you have in mind re: Houston partnering with someone to help revitalize Midtown? Who did Dallas partner with? What did the City of Dallas do to assist/promote the revitalization of Uptown Dallas, that Houston has failed to do? Before anyone gets all excited and thinks I'm challenging you to a dual ;-) let me just say, my questions are serious. While I think you have been somewhat extreme in your trashing of Houston, it does appear that Dallas has done/is doing a darned nice job in its Uptown District and maybe Houston could learn from it.

Here is something I do not understand. I'm pretty sure the Downtown Dallas hotel market has a lower occupancy rate than downtown Houston, and yet they get Ritz Carlton and W to come in and build entirely new hotels! And I just read recently of a proposal to refurbish some older downtown Dallas building into a hotel. Is there going to be a serious bloodbath down the road there, or what's up with that?

What abandoned property are you referring to that the city sold to someone for low-income housing?

When comparing Dallas's Uptown and Houston's Midtown, I think it's fair to keep in mind that Dallas has been working on revitalizing their Uptown for a VERY long time. For example, the Crescent Court (including its office buildings) and a lot of nearby development, has been there for probably at least 20 years already.

I think you're right that Houston's Uptown is more comparable to Dallas's Galleria Area (although I believe that it is actually somewhat further from downtown Dallas than Uptown is from downtown Houston). In any event, I have not been near Dallas' Galleria for a while, but unless the area has changed dramatically, I think Houston has done a better job in developing this area. And the future is only looking better for Uptown Houston, growing more urban and pedestrian friendly.