H-Town Man Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 The long answer, for Texas, is that it's not even clear yet that urbanism is compatible in a positive way with the Texan ethos; so we shouldn't bawl too many tears over towers foregone, but instead wonder and work - informed by the growing pains and excesses the Twentieth Century put across the bodies of Dallas and Houston and San Antonio - on whether there are new types of built environment, buildings and landscape, that maintain what is good about the impressions Texanness makes on a person without distending it through interminable expanses of horizontal boxes *or* vertical anonymous window cells.What is the Texan ethos and why is urbanism not compatible with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strickn Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 (edited) It's finals week, H-Town, I've just pulled an all-nighter and you're unfortunately going to have to go it alone, yet rather than say that I'd like you (and others! -please!) to continue to dwell on it and perhaps Private Message me with your non-Discovery Tower thoughts (that goes for others as well), I can say that if you're not a'tall interested in going it alone, there was, about four hours after my post, a post on houstonstrategies.blogspot.com from the gist of which you can come up with at least a few ways [if less than entirely satisfyingly inspiring ones [sheesh, imagine reading the paper I just wrote]] the question could be addressed. Edited May 15, 2007 by strickn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 It's finals week, H-Town, I've just pulled an all-nighter and you're unfortunately going to have to go it alone, yet rather than say that I'd like you (and others! -please!) to continue to dwell on it and perhaps Private Message me with your non-Discovery Tower thoughts (that goes for others as well), I can say that if you're not a'tall interested in going it alone, there was, about four hours after my post, a post on houstonstrategies.blogspot.com from the gist of which you can come up with at least a few ways [if less than entirely satisfyingly inspiring ones [sheesh, imagine reading the paper I just wrote]] the question could be addressed.I read the Houston Strategies post. Responded to it, in fact. I don't think that there's a "Texas ethos." There might have been a Scots-Irish ethos that influenced the early culture of Texas, but big cities and glass skyscrapers are here to stay. If anything, they satisfy the Texan penchant for conspicuous consumption and bragadoccio. So you haven't really convinced me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 (edited) [sidenote: Do you really expect 600 park users and convention goers to avail themselves of those spaces during business hours?]The Discovery Green garage, as I understand it, was built to alleviate the demand for parking in blocks adjacent to the park so that development could fill them up. If every office building that gets built there has to have its own private ten story parking garage, then it kind of defeats that intent. It would be nice if the buildings that fronted directly on the park did not have any parking built into them, or if it at least were underground, but knowing how most development downtown has gone in recent years, that is not likely to happen.The Discovery Green garage is being built to serve the park, the convention center and "other public parking needs in the area" and it will offset the combined capacity of the two existing lots that were demolished at the location. Every office building built either in that area or elsewhere downtown will have parking either built into them or adjacent to them. They will not rely on the Discovery Green garage to provide parking for their tenants. (Of course the hope is that the area surrounding Discovery Green will be more residential than office, but the same will apply to residential buildings.)Sidenote: Why would convention goers and park users not avail themselves of the parking spaces during business hours? Most conventions are held during business hours. And the park will have two restaurants in it that will no doubt operate during business hours. A convention of any size at all will fill that garage very quickly, especially when combined with the restaurant business and park activities. "Parking is an important amenity for the downtown park, which we understood clearly from the public input process," according to the Director of the Downtown Park Conservancy. When they set about to build the Discovery Green garage they clearly did not have in mind providing parking spaces for nearby office buildings. Edited May 15, 2007 by Houston19514 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 There is also a very important amenity of the parking being underground so people's lungs won't be seared by them (from the northern climes) just jumping into a parked out into the sun for a few hours during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 The Discovery Green garage is being built to serve the park, the convention center and "other public parking needs in the area" and it will offset the combined capacity of the two existing lots that were demolished at the location. Every office building built either in that area or elsewhere downtown will have parking either built into them or adjacent to them. They will not rely on the Discovery Green garage to provide parking for their tenants. (Of course the hope is that the area surrounding Discovery Green will be more residential than office, but the same will apply to residential buildings.)Sidenote: Why would convention goers and park users not avail themselves of the parking spaces during business hours? Most conventions are held during business hours. And the park will have two restaurants in it that will no doubt operate during business hours. A convention of any size at all will fill that garage very quickly, especially when combined with the restaurant business and park activities. "Parking is an important amenity for the downtown park, which we understood clearly from the public input process," according to the Director of the Downtown Park Conservancy. When they set about to build the Discovery Green garage they clearly did not have in mind providing parking spaces for nearby office buildings.Thanks, that's a good explanation. But you took my initial post way too seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 The Discovery Green garage, as I understand it, was built to alleviate the demand for parking in blocks adjacent to the park so that development could fill them up. If every office building that gets built there has to have its own private ten story parking garage, then it kind of defeats that intent. It would be nice if the buildings that fronted directly on the park did not have any parking built into them, or if it at least were underground, but knowing how most development downtown has gone in recent years, that is not likely to happen.H-Town, I believe code requires parking be provided for new tower construction. It does not have to be built into the building (it can be reserved in an adjacent garage, for instance), but the developer does have to account for a specified number of spaces per 1,000 feet of office space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernz Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 H-Town, I believe code requires parking be provided for new tower construction. It does not have to be built into the building (it can be reserved in an adjacent garage, for instance), but the developer does have to account for a specified number of spaces per 1,000 feet of office space.There is an exception on Chapter 42 (Houston development ordinance) that allows construction in Downtown with NO PARKING at all. But TC would be crazy to build a Class A office tower with no parking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 fernz, I just checked with my architect buddy, and for new construction, he says you have to have dedicated off-street parking. As for existing structures, you do not have to provide any additional parking, though. Regardless of the requirement, you are correct that a developer would be a fool not to provide adequate parking. This is exactly what causes some buildings to rent quickly, and others to sit vacant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 No one suggested that new office buildings not provide any parking. What I would wish for is that buildings fronting a park put the parking out of sight, either behind the building (away from the park), on an adjacent block, or underground. Buildings where the first 5-10 stories are parking are just not that handsome IMHO, no matter how well they cover it up. The aesthetics are compromised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 No one suggested that new office buildings not provide any parking. What I would wish for is that buildings fronting a park put the parking out of sight, either behind the building (away from the park), on an adjacent block, or underground. Buildings where the first 5-10 stories are parking are just not that handsome IMHO, no matter how well they cover it up. The aesthetics are compromised.Nah, I like Phoenix Tower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernz Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 fernz, I just checked with my architect buddy, and for new construction, he says you have to have dedicated off-street parking. As for existing structures, you do not have to provide any additional parking, though. Regardless of the requirement, you are correct that a developer would be a fool not to provide adequate parking. This is exactly what causes some buildings to rent quickly, and others to sit vacant.Not to drag on this issue, but have your architect buddy look into Chapter 26 (my mistake, it's not Chapter 42) of the code of ordinances. You can even check it yourself, it's online at http://www.houstontx.gov/codes/index.htmlSection 26-3 (d) states that "...the central business district has in place an adequate level of parking and loading facilities and it is hereby exempted from the requirements of this chapter." (you can look at the beginning of the chapter for the definition of the CBD)How do you think a building with huge parking requirements such as the new Catholic Cathedral was permitted with ZERO parking spaces provided? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Nah, I like Phoenix Tower.Phoenix Tower - a good example of probably the only way to fully conceal parking, which is to put up totally reflective glass. May look okay from a freeway, but really bland from a park.Of course, even a building like the Wells Fargo tower would lose something if the lower floors had parking. The lobby would be compromised, and you'd lose the nice nighttime view of the lit-up offices in the lower floors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 (edited) Not to drag on this issue, but have your architect buddy look into Chapter 26 (my mistake, it's not Chapter 42) of the code of ordinances. You can even check it yourself, it's online at http://www.houstontx.gov/codes/index.htmlSection 26-3 (d) states that "...the central business district has in place an adequate level of parking and loading facilities and it is hereby exempted from the requirements of this chapter." (you can look at the beginning of the chapter for the definition of the CBD) How do you think a building with huge parking requirements such as the new Catholic Cathedral was permitted with ZERO parking spaces provided? I was looking at Ch. 26 earlier, before I reponded, but I missed the first few pages. Thanks for the cite. That paragraph appears to clearly exempt the CBD from parking regulation, which BTW, is what I had always believed the rule to be. I will question my friend again about this. He was in a hurry when I spoke to him, though he was firm in his belief that parking was required. As for the Disco Tower, it could be designed to push parking to the north side of the block, leaving the south side for lobby area. This of course would reduce the available parking area...at least on the ground floor...but would allow for a more attractive facade facing the park. Perhaps something like this building... Edited May 17, 2007 by RedScare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Phoenix Tower - a good example of probably the only way to fully conceal parking, which is to put up totally reflective glass. May look okay from a freeway, but really bland from a park.Eh, I'd disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houston-development Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 crows plans to put a parking structure on block 98: rusk, crawford, walker, and la branch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister X Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) Houstonist wrote about this today. http://houstonist.com/2007/07/16/hines_plans_47s.phpIn that Houstonist article about the new 47 floor Hines building, it mentions (at the bottom) that the proposed Discovery tower project being developed by Trammel Crow is going to be 850,000 sq ft. In the old chronicle article it said that Discovery tower was going to have 630,000 sq ft. and be 31 floors.Does anyone think that Discovery Tower might have more floors now that more sq ft is being added on (assuming the Houstonist is correct). If Hines 47 (cute nickname) is to be 900,000 sq ft and Discovery Tower is to be 850,000 sq ft - wouldn't that bring Discovery up to at least 40 floors now? Edited July 16, 2007 by Mister X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) Yeah, I would say at least 40 floors. Not too much shorter than Hines 47 either, but does Hines 47 have a larger base than Discovery Tower? If so, maybe Discovery Tower would be taller. Edited July 16, 2007 by Trae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChannelTwoNews Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Does anyone think that Discovery Tower might have more floors now that more sq ft is being added on (assuming the Houstonist is correct). If Hines 47 (cute nickname) is to be 900,000 sq ft and Discovery Tower is to be 850,000 sq ft - wouldn't that bring Discovery up to at least 40 floors now?I actually saw that 850k quote first in the HBJ print article about the project on Main Street and was a bit surprised. Maybe they've found or are thinking about potential tenants to bring on board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 when i first saw that discovery tower was planning to build, i saw that it was going to be at least 31 floors and great potential to make it to 50 floors. yet everytime i see a thing on it, it says 31 floors. i really hope it goes to at least 40-45 floors. and do we still not have a rendering on this yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 tramell crows website says that is between 600,000 sqft. and 1.2 million sqft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Why have I not seen a single render of this thing? Am I just not looking in the right location or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 i have looked just about everywhere i can and think of and i havent found one either. they may not have it because they dont know what the height will be yet (assuming). but if they do, they need to get it out in the public for us to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wxman Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 i have looked just about everywhere i can and think of and i havent found one either. they may not have it because they dont know what the height will be yet (assuming). but if they do, they need to get it out in the public for us to see.The tower is to break ground in a couple of months. Certainly they know how big the tower will be...you know, height and sq. ft. If not, they have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I haven't found anything either. I hope the building at least looks nice and is probably the first of many proposed for the Discovery Green area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 this is the closest i have to a rendering and i think we have all seen it before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 ok my photo didnt come up and now it wont work. sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 hereWrong building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm91 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 no genius. look where discovery tower will be. i know it says one park place but look at the pic and you'll see what im talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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