2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[barracuda]

No you didn't just actually give Michael Moore some credibility did you? 'Cuda, I really enjoy jousting with you, and you have a lot of really valid points, but please don't go there and save some self respect. I love ya man, but not enough to buy that lemon.

It's not really my goal to stick up for Michael Moore. I think he's one-sided, overly dramatic, and his stunts are often geared more for sensationalism than intelligent discourse. BUT, I think he makes some valid points, and he counters the common wisdom of our country. I think there is value in people like him in waking us from the groupthink we will otherwise succumb to with our corporate MSM and party-line politicians.

[sevfiv]

^I agree that he counts on sensationalism and drama to push his points...but that's the point. He's attempting to bring huge issues to the forefront that are generally presented one-sided to begin with (healthcare comes to mind).

His statements in documentaries are indeed verifiable and sources reputable from what I have observed.

But back on topic - it's been a while since I have felt hopeful about the future of health care/insurance, civil rights, education, foreign relations, etc. I hope that changes with the upcoming election...

[TJones]

That's inaccurate. Obama didn't agree to more TOWN HALL appearances with John McCain. (To my knowledge, Obama didn't agree to any). But that was a very smart political move on Obama's part to turn that down. It wouldn't do anything but help McCain by making Obama look like he's a follower of McCain's ideas. If Obama said yes, it would not have changed anything on their stance on the issues, wouldn't have changed the minds of the voters that already made their minds up, and there's already three nationally televised debates.

That's what I was referring to DJ, those "town hall" meetings were to be small scaled debates. Is it also your belief that not wanting to "follow McCain's ideas" be the reason why Obama didn't want to return to Washington to get some work done at his actual job ?

[memebag]

Is it also your belief that not wanting to "follow McCain's ideas" be the reason why Obama didn't want to return to Washington to get some work done at his actual job ?

Obama did return to Washington to work on the bailout. That wasn't ever the issue. McCain wanted to postpone the debate.

[KinkaidAlum]

Actually Kink they are more than "charges" now, they are convictions, they plead guilty a couple of days ago in a plea bargain agreement. That's one of the reasons for all the hoopla. And come on "Rolling Stone"? Written by Bobby Kennedy's kid? Michael Moore might as well wrote the damn thing. Does the, oh my god, "Kennedy" name give it some kind of golden legitamecy? You sure don't want to mention the Kennedy name and Voter Fraud in the same sentence. 1960 ring any bells? But let's not dwell on History, the thread is on 2008.

What Acorn did was WRONG. Messing with Democracy is a terrible thing. Voting is the most powerful thing we can offer a citizen and we should make sure that our elections are clean.

However, denying there was fraud in 2004 because the article was written by a Kennedy or saying it doesn't matter because it's 2008 is assinine.

I take it you didn't bother to read the article? If you did, can you tell me where you find fault with the following sources cited or at least point me to a link in which they are discredited?

The U.S. Department of Defense

The International Herald Tribune

The Minneapolis Star Tribune

The Federal Election Commission

Scripss Howard News Service

The New York Times

The Associated Press

The Columbus Dispatch

The Washington Post

John Zogby

The National Election Data Archive

The Cleveland Plain Dealer

The Board of Elections (numerous Ohio counties)

The Toledo Blade

The Washington Times

The George Washington Law Review

NPR's All Things Considered

U.S. Court of Appeals Third Circuit

BBC News

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

San Antonio Express-News

The Boston Globe

Newsweek

Dayton Daily News

The Los Angeles Times

The Ohio Secretary of State website

Vanity Fair

The Providence Phoenix

PBS Online Newshour

The Cincinnati Enquirer

Harper's

The Orange County Register

[TJones]

That's a very convincing argument. We know she's protected from witchcraft. How many other presidents can make the same claim? Hmmm?

Meme, you know how powerful you Wicken people are !!! After all, aren't you like a level 64 Mage Elf on WOW ???

[TJones]

Obama did return to Washington to work on the bailout. That wasn't ever the issue. McCain wanted to postpone the debate.

.....wanted to postpone the debate to get a deal worked out, which was beleived by EVERYONE to go down yesterday. Obama wantd to stay on the campaign trail and only went back after he saw McCain was going back. Tell these folks the truth meme. Even Harry Reid told Obama that he wasn't needed and to stay on the campaign trail, which is what Obama wanted to do in the first place. Harry tried to do the same to McCain, and McCain basically told Harry to go F himself. I also asked you what the difference would have been between a debate on Friday and a debate yesterday, and you still haven't answered the question.

[RedScare]

.....wanted to postpone the debate to get a deal worked out, which was beleived by EVERYONE to go down yesterday. Obama wantd to stay on the campaign trail and only went back after he saw McCain was going back. Tell these folks the truth meme. Even Harry Reid told Obama that he wasn't needed and to stay on the campaign trail, which is what Obama wanted to do in the first place. Harry tried to do the same to McCain, and McCain basically told Harry to go F himself. I also asked you what the difference would have been between a debate on Friday and a debate yesterday, and you still haven't answered the question.

OK, TJ, since you insist on painting McCain as the ultimate patriot and not the cynical politician that he is, we'll go with your version. McCain heroically suspended his campaign to save the country from greed. Then, once he returned to Washington, the meeting at the White House cratered. And, after he worked tirelessly all weekend to get a deal back on track, HIS OWN PARTY voted 2/3 against him.

This makes McCain as irrelevant as his mentor, George W. Bush, and McCain did it before the election. At least he still has the anti-witchcraft voting block.

[sifuwong]

I wonder if these polls include the young voters(18-25 yr olds, especially the minority ones). I would think that most of them are going for Obama. Also, most of them are pretty quiet until election day. Unlike previous elections, i think more younger voters are gonna be out in force to vote. It could be unprecedented. I'm thinking alot of these polls that the media uses are of people in their 30s and up. The polls really aren't that accurate, so i don't give in to them.

[Trae]

.....wanted to postpone the debate to get a deal worked out, which was beleived by EVERYONE to go down yesterday. Obama wantd to stay on the campaign trail and only went back after he saw McCain was going back. Tell these folks the truth meme. Even Harry Reid told Obama that he wasn't needed and to stay on the campaign trail, which is what Obama wanted to do in the first place. Harry tried to do the same to McCain, and McCain basically told Harry to go F himself. I also asked you what the difference would have been between a debate on Friday and a debate yesterday, and you still haven't answered the question.

So, is that why McCain sat in the corner and didn't say much the entire time, or what?

[ricco67]

I think you might be mistaken in that. One of the largest turnouts for 18-25 was for Clinton. From what I remember, there was little difference in their vote because so few young adults voted.

[sarahiki]

I wonder if these polls include the young voters(18-25 yr olds, especially the minority ones). I would think that most of them are going for Obama. Also, most of them are pretty quiet until election day. Unlike previous elections, i think more younger voters are gonna be out in force to vote. It could be unprecedented. I'm thinking alot of these polls that the media uses are of people in their 30s and up. The polls really aren't that accurate, so i don't give in to them.

I've heard that the polls are conducted by landline telephones, and therefore reflect an older demographic, rather than a true cross-section. As Memebag pointed out elsewhere, landlines are so 20th century. So you may be right that younger voters, and poorer voters, are underrepresented by those polls.

[DJ V Lawrence]

How is it not equally hypocritical for Obama to preach change then pick a running mate whos been in DC for 25 yrs.

..... You wanna call McCain a hypocrite.. fine.. but dont leave out that Obama was the hypocrite first.

Joe Biden is in a different political party than President Bush. If they were in the same party as the President and had the same belief in policy, and at the same time were calling themselves the ticket of "change", that would be hypocritical. I'm not buying the Biden-same-as-Bush argument yet.

If McCain/Palin were calling for "change" yet were going for the same White House as someone within their own political party, that would be seen as hypocritical at first. That's one reason why these debates are so important. It gives both Palin and McCain a chance to show they'd be different from Bush if they believed Bush's policies or implementation process needed to be changed in the first place. It also gives Americans an opportunity to listen to them instead of the rhetoric.

and repackaging it as "rounds out the experience of the Obama/Biden team" doesnt make Obama any less a hypocrite.

It wouldn't make Obama a hypocrite. Do you really think that bringing in someone with less experience as the VP would have helped Obama more? The idea is deciding which president would have better judgement. Obama chose one of the strongest Democrats in foreign policy experience, and McCain himself has been in a position where he can make decisions based on his experience. It's fair. The question a lot of us independents have now is if McCain choosing Palin as a VP is as wise as Obama picking Biden as a VP.

We'll hopefully know on Thursday.

[TJones]

OK, TJ, since you insist on painting McCain as the ultimate patriot and not the cynical politician that he is, we'll go with your version. McCain heroically suspended his campaign to save the country from greed. Then, once he returned to Washington, the meeting at the White House cratered. And, after he worked tirelessly all weekend to get a deal back on track, HIS OWN PARTY voted 2/3 against him.

This makes McCain as irrelevant as his mentor, George W. Bush, and McCain did it before the election. At least he still has the anti-witchcraft voting block.

...and everything was fine and dandy, and set to pass, until Pelosi felt she had to open her big yapper at the last second and give some BS speech to try and save the face of her party, which is what actually "cratered" the voting. Although, all those earmarks Dodd was still trying to get passed through may have had more to do with it. There is obviously something still very very wrong with the plan, otherwise, all the Reid/Pelosi cronies would have been on board instead of just 60%. I beleive McCain was probably told enroute that the bill was likely to pass and that he would not have to give any speech to try and persuade his party any further. Listening to him talking today though, it looks like he is gonna have some one on ones with some members before Thursday.

Red, I am not saying that McCain is the guiding light out of this, I am simply showing that he was actually wanting to do something. I will take McCain at his word that he wanted to get this thing hashed out, and I will take Obama at his word that he felt he would be better served by staying on his campaign trail at not trying to get involved.

Now, let me ask you this. Since Bernanke borrowed $630billion today, does the rehash of the bailout even matter now ? PErhaps it will be a $400 billion bailout now, and that will be easier to pass ?

Edited September 30, 2008 by TJones

[HtownWxBoy]

I think it's over for McCain / Palin.

[west20th]

I think it's over for McCain / Palin.

Do you think Palin will even make it to the debates? I have a feeling if McCain's campaign isn't happy with her debate prep she may bow out of the race for "personal reasons".

[RedScare]

...and everything was fine and dandy, and set to pass, until Pelosi felt she had to open her big yapper at the last second and give some BS speech to try and save the face of her party, which is what actually "cratered" the voting. Although, all those earmarks Dodd was still trying to get passed through may have had more to do with it. There is obviously something still very very wrong with the plan, otherwise, all the Reid/Pelosi cronies would have been on board instead of just 60%. I beleive McCain was probably told enroute that the bill was likely to pass and that he would not have to give any speech to try and persuade his party any further. Listening to him talking today though, it looks like he is gonna have some one on ones with some members before Thursday.

So, you are saying that the P in GOP actually stands for p-u-s-s-i-e-s? Your party has been reduced to a bunch of crybabies who take their ball and go home when picked on by a GIRL? No wonder McCain picked Sarah Palin for his running mate. They needed someone with some huevos, and the GOP was fresh out. I can't believe a former college footbal lineman like yourself would put up with politicians acting like pantywaste, TJ. You should be ridiculing these weenies like me and Barney Frank are. If the GOP is not going to be the party of intelligence, the least it can do is be the party of tough guys. It is now neither.

Red, I am not saying that McCain is the guiding light out of this, I am simply showing that he was actually wanting to do something. I will take McCain at his word that he wanted to get this thing hashed out, and I will take Obama at his word that he felt he would be better served by staying on his campaign trail at not trying to get involved.

Wanting to do something and actually doing something are two different things. Discretion being the better part of valor, staying away, instead of dragging the presidential political campaign into delicate negotiations would seem to be the better choice. John McCain is absolutely unworthy of the honorable tag he adorns himself with, and his actions of the past week prove it.

[pineda]

So, you are saying that the P in GOP actually stands for p-u-s-s-i-e-s? Your party has been reduced to a bunch of crybabies who take their ball and go home when picked on by a GIRL? No wonder McCain picked Sarah Palin for his running mate. They needed someone with some huevos, and the GOP was fresh out. I can't believe a former college footbal lineman like yourself would put up with politicians acting like pantywaste, TJ. You should be ridiculing these weenies like me and Barney Frank are. If the GOP is not going to be the party of intelligence, the least it can do is be the party of tough guys. It is now neither.

Wanting to do something and actually doing something are two different things. Discretion being the better part of valor, staying away, instead of dragging the presidential political campaign into delicate negotiations would seem to be the better choice. John McCain is absolutely unworthy of the honorable tag he adorns himself with, and his actions of the past week prove it.

meaning of the word: valor

So by staying away, Barack Obama was being, in your opinion, "heroic"? Sounds a lot like voting "Present".

meaning of the word: honorable

Whatever you and your pal, Barney Frank, may think of John McCain, he has more than earned the moniker: "honorable".

Edited September 30, 2008 by pineda

[TJones]

I actually LAUGHED OUT LOUD at what Barney Frank said. I will agree, the dunderheads that promised their vote then curtailed it should be outted. There were so many bad judgement calls on this thing, I just have to believe it all came down to trying to rush things and not having a solid cohesive unit on this. Rep. said they THOUGHT they had the vote, when they probably knew they didn't. I am sure Pelosi sounded like a good scapegoat at the time, but that was all it was. She had no real reason to make that speech other than to get in a few shots for her own pleasure, and it derailed this thing until Thursday. I am sure Pelosi will not be opening her cakehole before the vote THIS time. Both sides have dropped the ball on this.

EDIT: I think it would have passed with flying colors if Dodd's earmarks for Acorn, Lulac, the Urban League, yadda, yadda, yadda had NOT been in the package. All monies gained as profit in this deal should go directly back into the Treasury, not get pieces broken off for welfare programs.

Edited October 1, 2008 by TJones

[RedScare]

I actually LAUGHED OUT LOUD at what Barney Frank said. I will agree, the dunderheads that promised their vote then curtailed it should be outted. There were so many bad judgement calles on this thing, I just have to believe it all came down to trying to rush things and not having a solid cohesive unit on this. Rep. said they THOUGHT they had the vote, when they probably knew they didn't. I am sure Pelosi sounded like a good scapegoat at the time, but that was all it was. She had no real reason to make that speech other than to get in a few shots for her own pleasure, and it derailed this thing until Thursday. I am sure Pelosi will not be opening her cakehole before the vote THIS time. Both sides have dropped the ball on this.

EDIT: I think it would have passed with flying colors if Dodd's earmarks for Acorn, Lulac, the Urban League, yadda, yadda, yadda had NOT been in the package. All monies gained as profit in this deal should go directly back into the Treasury, not get pieces broken off for welfare programs.

The earmarks were stripped from the bill, along with bankruptcy reform. The "profits" were to go into the general treasury. That is why the 40% of liberal Democrats joined the manhood challenged Republicans in voting against the bailout bill.

[HtownWxBoy]

Do you think Palin will even make it to the debates? I have a feeling if McCain's campaign isn't happy with her debate prep she may bow out of the race for "personal reasons".

Oh yea, she will make the debates, it's way to close to the election... she's in it for the long haul... or short haul I guess. I just keep thinking of her Katie Couric interviews... scares me to death thinking that woman could be a heart beat away from the Presidency.

[C2H]

I wasn't sure if I was going to vote for Mccain or Obama until Palin came in the picture. Now i'm not planning to vote at all. If I do, it will be for Obama.

I think everyone's expecting Palin to fail but I heard she's cramming like crazy and is being set up with some of the top political experts to prepare her for the debates. She may have her engine going and win this debate. I'm scared

[Trae]

Not voting huh? You have no room to complain then if the next four years is not what you like.

[C2H]

I'm kidding Trae. I'm going to vote. I'm more impressed with Obama's plans right now of trying to get out of the recession. Before Palin came in the picture, I was straddling the fence between Obama and Mccain. Couldn't decide.

[20thStDad]

Nothing in the constitution says you have to vote to complain. Hell, you don't even have to pay taxes. We are born with the right to whine about anything we want to. Voting for a candidate who won't carry your state's electoral votes no matter what you do isn't worth a half day's work to some people. Not saying that's me, but I don't think you need to vote to complain. Doesn't do any good though.

[KinkaidAlum]

...and everything was fine and dandy, and set to pass, until Pelosi felt she had to open her big yapper at the last second and give some BS speech to try and save the face of her party, which is what actually "cratered" the voting. Although, all those earmarks Dodd was still trying to get passed through may have had more to do with it. There is obviously something still very very wrong with the plan, otherwise, all the Reid/Pelosi cronies would have been on board instead of just 60%. I beleive McCain was probably told enroute that the bill was likely to pass and that he would not have to give any speech to try and persuade his party any further. Listening to him talking today though, it looks like he is gonna have some one on ones with some members before Thursday.

Red, I am not saying that McCain is the guiding light out of this, I am simply showing that he was actually wanting to do something. I will take McCain at his word that he wanted to get this thing hashed out, and I will take Obama at his word that he felt he would be better served by staying on his campaign trail at not trying to get involved.

Now, let me ask you this. Since Bernanke borrowed $630billion today, does the rehash of the bailout even matter now ? PErhaps it will be a $400 billion bailout now, and that will be easier to pass ?

You can't be serious with this, can you?

Up until last week, McCain thought the fundamentals, I mean workers, were strong!

The truth is, neither Obama nor McCain have been doing anything as Senators over the last year. Just look at all the votes missed. Over 400 missed for McCain and about 300 and change for Obama. They've been in D.C. this past year less than Palin spent in Ireland on her goodwill tour, I mean, refueling stop.

And, it is MORONIC to think that the House Republicans were all set to vote for these bills until mean ole partisan Nancy spoke her mind. Really? Are they that fragile? Even if their stupid excuse was true, what would that really mean? It would mean they put Party politics over what they saw as best for the U.S.A. ... So much for Country First!

The House Republicans voted this down for 2 reasons and they are as follows;

1) Calls and emails to Congress were coming in at about 100 to 1 AGAINST the bailout. There were so many constituents emailing in that the entire system FAILED. There's also a little election coming up in November. Now is not a good time to piss off the voters.

2) Ethics. Many of these House Republicans are trying to practive what they preach... a belief in the free market, a disgust for government spending, and a distrust of governmental regulations. Read the bill and you'll find out why so many who preach these things would be opposed to this bill.

[Trae]

Obama: 286

McCain: 190

Ties: 62

http://electoral-vote.com/

[PuroAztlan]

Stick a fork in McCain.

[N Judah]

This debacle will only help them. The Repubs have the high ground since they tried to fix the housing thing years ago. The Democrats like Barney Frank (literally in bed with Fannie Mae top brass) kowtowed to their hedge fund overlords (I love how Dem blogs will openly non-sarcastically refer to Wall St. titans as "Princes of Wall Street"...ugh) even going on the record to say that nothing was wrong.

The Democrats are no better than the Repubs. However the Repubs have set their own bar so low with GWB that almost anything they do comes up awesome. On the other hand it was the Dems election to lose and it's easy to look back and see how they helped put us in this mess.

Both sides are complicit in this economic debacle that might define the election. Looking at a post-bailout vote analysis it's easy to see that they're all terrified of the possibility:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/20..._financial.html

Edit: Their only hope is to try to buy votes with extra pork.

Edited October 1, 2008 by N Judah

[DJ V Lawrence]

You can't be serious with this, can you?

Up until last week, McCain thought the fundamentals, I mean workers, were strong!

The truth is, neither Obama nor McCain have been doing anything as Senators over the last year. Just look at all the votes missed. Over 400 missed for McCain and about 300 and change for Obama. They've been in D.C. this past year less than Palin spent in Ireland on her goodwill tour, I mean, refueling stop.

And, it is MORONIC to think that the House Republicans were all set to vote for these bills until mean ole partisan Nancy spoke her mind. Really? Are they that fragile? Even if their stupid excuse was true, what would that really mean? It would mean they put Party politics over what they saw as best for the U.S.A. ... So much for Country First!

The House Republicans voted this down for 2 reasons and they are as follows;

1) Calls and emails to Congress were coming in at about 100 to 1 AGAINST the bailout. There were so many constituents emailing in that the entire system FAILED. There's also a little election coming up in November. Now is not a good time to piss off the voters.

2) Ethics. Many of these House Republicans are trying to practive what they preach... a belief in the free market, a disgust for government spending, and a distrust of governmental regulations. Read the bill and you'll find out why so many who preach these things would be opposed to this bill.

I'm glad you said everything you just said, especially the bolded part. It's just common sense.

Another point; I don't understand why anyone would honestly expect Obama or McCain, two SENATORS, to have a direct impact on HOUSE Republicans and Democrats. I would semi-understand if both guys were going to Washington for that meeting/briefing with President Bush, and I'd also understand if it was a fact-finding trip with House members. I however don't understand how either candidate could claim they made the deciding "impact", or could claim they were suspending their campaign because of the financial crisis, when NEITHER candidate was actually voting on the issue.

Now, if the issue were on the Senate floor, I would probably understand why they'd go out of their way to make sure they didn't miss the vote because THEY would be expected to vote.