2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[Jeebus]

Was Obama 7 when Ayer's threw him a party ?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obam...ayers18.article

Thank you.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I honestly never heard of Bill Ayers before this campaign (I'm 26). Was it Bill Ayers:The Domestic Terrorist that supported Obama in 2001, or Bill Ayers:The University Professor/charity board member who Obama talked to?

And could someone here please clarify how someone who was deemed a terrorist is able to become a university professor, a board member for charity organizations? I mean, when I hear "terrorist", I think Osama Bin Laden or Timothy McVeigh. According to the article, no one was hurt in his organization's attacks. His group though did bomb multiple federal buildings including the Pentagon, which I would assume would be grounds for someone to get life in prison, yeah? (Might need Redscare's help in clarifying the legal part). But the charges were dropped after improper surveillance?

And was Obama's meeting Ayers bad judgement? I'm asking because that story and smear sounds REALLY stretched from the outside looking in.

[PuroAztlan]

Was Obama 7 when Ayer's threw him a party ?

Yes.

[TJones]

Yes.

Crackpots aside, DJ, Bill Ayers Terrorist/Professor are one in the same. Leopards don't change their spots, only reason Ayers isn't in jail now is because of some over zealous FBI agents.

Again, DJ, Obama claims to have idolized Bill Ayers. I will try and find the story again just for you.

Edited October 6, 2008 by TJones

[PuroAztlan]

Leopards don't change their spots, only reason Ayers isn't in jail now is because of some over zealous FBI agents.

No.

[lockmat]

In an interview with conservative New York Times columnist William Kristol published Monday...

I guess there are no liberal columnists in main stream media. They're never pointed out. I guess everyone is either in the middle or on the right.

At a morning rally in Florida, Palin kept up her criticism of Obama's ties to Ayers, a founder of the violent Weather Underground group blamed for several bombings during the Vietnam War era, when Obama was a child.

I love how they keep throwing that in there.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6042452.html

[lockmat]

I honestly never heard of Bill Ayers before this campaign (I'm 26). Was it Bill Ayers:The Domestic Terrorist that supported Obama in 2001, or Bill Ayers:The University Professor/charity board member who Obama talked to?

And could someone here please clarify how someone who was deemed a terrorist is able to become a university professor, a board member for charity organizations? I mean, when I hear "terrorist", I think Osama Bin Laden or Timothy McVeigh. According to the article, no one was hurt in his organization's attacks. His group though did bomb multiple federal buildings including the Pentagon, which I would assume would be grounds for someone to get life in prison, yeah? (Might need Redscare's help in clarifying the legal part). But the charges were dropped after improper surveillance?

And was Obama's meeting Ayers bad judgement? I'm asking because that story and smear sounds REALLY stretched from the outside looking in.

Yeah, I would say someone setting of bombs at major buildings with lots of people in it should get someone life in prison. That's a terrorist in my book. I doubt anyone would want someone blowing up their house b/c they differed in viewpoints.

I wouldn't necessarily say Obama shares the same views or values as Ayers. But let's get personal. Would any one of us associate in any way with someone who blew up buildings? Seriously. I'd say that's bad judgment.

[memebag]

I wouldn't necessarily say Obama shares the same views or values as Ayers. But let's get personal. Would any one of us associate in any way with someone who blew up buildings? Seriously. I'd say that's bad judgment.

What would you say of someone who associates with someone who broke into a rival political campaign's headquarters, proposed kidnapping activists and murdering journalists?

From the Chicago Tribune:

How close are McCain and Liddy? At least as close as Obama and Ayers appear to be. In 1998, Liddy's home was the site of a McCain fundraiser. Over the years, he has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns -- including $1,000 this year.

Last November, McCain went on his radio show. Liddy greeted him as "an old friend," and McCain sounded like one. "I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family," he gushed. "It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great."

[lockmat]

What would you say of someone who associates with someone who broke into a rival political campaign's headquarters, proposed kidnapping activists and murdering journalists?

From the Chicago Tribune:

I'd say that is poor judgement as well.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Crackpots aside, DJ, Bill Ayers Terrorist/Professor are one in the same. Leopards don't change their spots, only reason Ayers isn't in jail now is because of some over zealous FBI agents.

Again, DJ, Obama claims to have idolized Bill Ayers. I will try and find the story again just for you.

Thanks. I'm not too familiar with this Bill Ayers person.

My questions on the subject are:

1) How does "improper surveillance" get you off the hook for bombing multiple federal buildings? That's wild to me.

2) If a leopard doesn't change his spots, then how is Ayers now a university professor? Wouldn't that make him, like, um, a striped tiger or something?

3) Is Bill Ayers/Obama really as important a subject as McCain/Keating when the last month of the election is also in a month where the economy is dominating the headlines?

[Trae]

Keating Economics

Edited October 6, 2008 by Trae

[RedScare]

So, TJ, with the Dow Jones setting another new record today, dropping 800 points at one point, and settling below 10,000 for the first time since 2004, how many people do you think are paying attention to Palin talking about a 1960s radical versus say, how much value their retirement account has lost in the last week?

Not only was McCain knee deep in the Keating 5 scandal, which was at the heart of the 1980s S&L and housing collapse, McCain's campaign advisor Phil Gramm is knee deep in the CDO and CDS debacle, which is at the heart of today's financial and housing collapse. Say what you will about weather forecasters, but McCain STILL doesn't get it. He is STILL consorting with the greedy and corrupt Wall Street friends that Palin claimed they were going to run out of town.

[TJones]

So, TJ, with the Dow Jones setting another new record today, dropping 800 points at one point, and settling below 10,000 for the first time since 2004, how many people do you think are paying attention to Palin talking about a 1960s radical versus say, how much value their retirement account has lost in the last week?

Not only was McCain knee deep in the Keating 5 scandal, which was at the heart of the 1980s S&L and housing collapse, McCain's campaign advisor Phil Gramm is knee deep in the CDO and CDS debacle, which is at the heart of today's financial and housing collapse. Say what you will about weather forecasters, but McCain STILL doesn't get it. He is STILL consorting with the greedy and corrupt Wall Street friends that Palin claimed they were going to run out of town.

I was actually just thinking the same thing. But will socialism get us out of this mess ? I don't think EITHER candidate is qualified to run the country. Please explain, how is it if McCain was "knee deep" in the Keating 5 fiasco, that he escapes unharmed ? I don't know either, perhaps being the son and grandson of two Admirals has it's perks ?

Let's look at it this way, McCain has already claimed to halt spending on alot of programs to try and help with the economy, Obama wants to add another Trillion in spending on top of what the Govt. just bummed from the American Taxpayers, i.e. you and me Red. Wait, has Obama siad that he has put those plans on hold ?

Edited October 7, 2008 by TJones

[TJones]

What would you say of someone who associates with someone who broke into a rival political campaign's headquarters, proposed kidnapping activists and murdering journalists?

You mean the guy that had his sentence commuted by a Democrat President ? So, now a lethal terrorist group and someone breaking and entering to get some dirt on a rival are in the same realm ? Wow meme, I guess if we don't catch Bin Laden in 30 years and he turns up as a professor at UofH, everything will be forgiven and hunky dory for you.

[memebag]

I'd say that is poor judgement as well.

I wouldn't. Ayers was a militant leftist in the 60s and 70s. Now he's a professor and sits on the board of a charitable organization. I wouldn't stay away from the Woods Fund or the Chicago Annenberg Challenge because of him. Likewise, I wouldn't stay away from charitable organizations if Liddy was on the board. I might treat Liddy with more disdain than Ayers if I met them at a party (now, that would be some party) because I think Liddy did more to harm this country than Ayers ever could have, but I wouldn't leave the party if I saw either of them there.

So, now a lethal terrorist group and someone breaking and entering to get some dirt on a rival are in the same realm ?

Hardly. Liddy was much, much worse.

[lockmat]

I wouldn't. Ayers was a militant leftist in the 60s and 70s. Now he's a professor and sits on the board of a charitable organization. I wouldn't stay away from the Woods Fund or the Chicago Annenberg Challenge because of him. Likewise, I wouldn't stay away from charitable organizations if Liddy was on the board. I might treat Liddy with more disdain than Ayers if I met them at a party (now, that would be some party) because I think Liddy did more to harm this country than Ayers ever could have, but I wouldn't leave the party if I saw either of them there.

Honestly, it all depends on who Ayers is now. I'm always willing to forgive and forget if they have repented, but he has not. He may not be terrorizing now, but he did and he's not sorry for it.

And I don't think I'd be at a party in the first place if those two people were invited. Shows the character of people inviting them and I probably wouldn't be associated with them either in the first place.

[RedScare]

I was actually just thinking the same thing. But will socialism get us out of this mess ? I don't think EITHER candidate is qualified to run the country. Please explain, how is it if McCain was "knee deep" in the Keating 5 fiasco, that he escapes unharmed ? I don't know either, perhaps being the son and grandson of two Admirals has it's perks ?

Let's look at it this way, McCain has already claimed to halt spending on alot of programs to try and help with the economy, Obama wants to add another Trillion in spending on top of what the Govt. just bummed from the American Taxpayers, i.e. you and me Red. Wait, has Obama siad that he has put those plans on hold ?

Actually, yes, he has said some plans will be put on hold. This is actually a simple election, TJ. I am voting for MY self interests. It just so happens that my self interests are good for the country. You can vote against your self interests if you'd like, but you won't get me to go along with you. Iraq is not a threat to me. In fact, STAYING in Iraq is a threat to me. McCain running the economy will ruin what little investment I have. I am not going to vote against my self interests just because a Black guy might win.

I've said it before. Socialism is not a dirty word to me. We already have social programs, and they allow my 85 year old parents to live comfortably in their old age (that would include my dad, who was a pilot in World War II). Social programs are not all bad, and I reject the argument that they are. If Bush/McCain has been good to you, I do not fault your vote for McCain. If not, I wonder why you want to engage in self immolation by putting McCain and Palin in office. It's not like you are Bob McNair or something.

Now, as for McCain emerging from Keating 5 unharmed, did he? He was rebuked by Congress for his involvement, and he is forever known as one of the "Five". He is currently being beaten over the head with it as he runs for president during another mortgage and housing meltdown. Contrast that with Obama, who was 8 years old in the 60s, was never a member of the Weather Underground, and has never worked with Ayers on anything bad. Who is more involved? I know what your answer is, but it does not pass the logic test, and THAT is why this tactic will fail. It is not logical, and it is not current.

By contrast, McCain's associations are VERY current...and topical...and logical.

Edited October 6, 2008 by RedScare

[TJones]

Contrast that with Obama, who was 8 years old in the 60s, was never a member of the Weather Underground, and has never worked with Ayers on anything bad. Who is more involved?

Like I said to Meme, I guess you and him will both forgive Bin Laden in about 30 years using that logic ?

Red, say you were running for D.A. and someone funded you and threw a party for you at his house back in the 90's, why you two even served on a charitable committee together for a couple of years in the late 90's, and then come to find out he was a admitted child sex offender on 5 counts and was set to hang back in the 70's, but got off on a technicality, but you already KNEW all this when you were pallin ' around together back in the 90's. What kind of light would that put you in ?

Edited October 7, 2008 by TJones

[Trae]

Obama even closing in on McCain in Georgia. Georgia is probably feeling a North Carolina situation. The Atlanta area is helping out Obama with all of the transplant from the states in the Northeast as well as California. We'll see how Georgia plays out.

[RedScare]

Like I said to Meme, I guess you and him will both forgive Bin Laden in about 30 years using that logic ?

Red, say you were running for D.A. and someone funded you and threw a party for you at his house back in the 90's, why you two even served on a charitable committee together for a couple of years in the late 90's, and then come to find out he was a admitted child sex offender on 5 counts and was set to hang back in the 70's, but got off on a technicality, but you already KNEW all this when you were pallin ' around together back in the 90's. What kind of light would that put you in ?

TJ, your logic is fatally flawed. Frankly, you know it is flawed. Additionally, you refuse to apply the same logic to McCain. McCain is REALLY palling around with financial terrorists. They are on his campaign staff. Yet, you ignore it. I am through debating it with you. I will simply direct you to read the polls, where you can see for yourself that your logic (and McCain's logic) is not working on the voters, either.

PS - I can't WAIT for Palin to bring up the Rev. Wright thing, so Obama can go after Palin's use of pastors to shield her from witches, speaking in tongues, and advocacy for holy wars.

[Trae]

PS - I can't WAIT for Palin to bring up the Rev. Wright thing, so Obama can go after Palin's use of pastors to shield her from witches, speaking in tongues, and advocacy for holy wars.

I'm really hoping she does. Everyone has already been through the Wright drama. Palin pastor/church will all be new material.

[infinite_jim]

Trae do you not see the inherent problem with this?

Don't call me paranoid, I seena plenty LAMP cluster hack, but paper ballots are a very healthy way to maintain democracy. How would you feel if McCain won by 51.7% of the popular vote and a handful votes of the electoral college?

[Mark F. Barnes]

This is how far the BS media will reach to try and put any tarnish on the Bush administration it can, not that it needs any help getting tarnished. But a fine example of slanted so called reporting. Good ole NBC.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/17640502/detail.html

Now what relevance does this at all have to do with GWB, yet his name has to be mentioned in it? NONE WHAT SO EVER. But this is what the media has come to to try an slant their own political agenda. Talk about a far reach. Friggin' Pathetic is what it is. GWB shoots himself in the foot with enough regularity, that they really don't need to resort to these measure, yet they still do.

[Trae]

Obama: 349

McCain: 174

Ties: 15

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[20thStDad]

Not saying I believe the numbers any more than Trae's favorite site, but I like how they point out the "safe" and "leaning" numbers more clearly instead of painting a landslide. The page is also interesting to flip back and forth between 2004 results and projected numbers for this year. It just shows that there is the possibility for a lot of surprises on election day.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/calculator/

[sevfiv]

Looks like they're just connecting the celebrity dots to create some fanfare. Neil Bush is also the Chairman of the Board of Directors of Andrews Technologies.

This is how far the BS media will reach to try and put any tarnish on the Bush administration it can, not that it needs any help getting tarnished. But a fine example of slanted so called reporting. Good ole NBC.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/17640502/detail.html

Now what relevance does this at all have to do with GWB, yet his name has to be mentioned in it? NONE WHAT SO EVER. But this is what the media has come to to try an slant their own political agenda. Talk about a far reach. Friggin' Pathetic is what it is. GWB shoots himself in the foot with enough regularity, that they really don't need to resort to these measure, yet they still do.

[pineda]

Georgia is probably feeling a North Carolina situation. The Atlanta area is helping out Obama with all of the transplant from the states in the Northeast as well as California.

What are you trying to say here, Trae? Do you have a source for this material? Thanks!

[KinkaidAlum]

I guess the financial crisis is over since McCain is back on his campaign.

Thanks, John! Your help in ending this crisis was instrumental. I am glad to see the financial markets are doing so well that you're now able to campaign negatively. Glad to see that Country is indeed first... to be thrown infront of the bus!

[TJones]

TJ, your logic is fatally flawed. Frankly, you know it is flawed. Additionally, you refuse to apply the same logic to McCain. McCain is REALLY palling around with financial terrorists. They are on his campaign staff. Yet, you ignore it. I am through debating it with you. I will simply direct you to read the polls, where you can see for yourself that your logic (and McCain's logic) is not working on the voters, either.

Of course, when you are drunk on the Obama-Aid, all logic, except for your Messiah's, is thrown out the window. If you didn't feel comfortable saying that associating with admitted criminals is NOT a good thing , all you had to do was say so. You didn't have to go into the long, drawn out, "I rather not debate it anymore" approach.

Bottomline is Obama expouses to "Love America" yet has done nothing but try to idolize, emulate and surround himself, over the years, with those who are "America Haters". That is where the logic is flawed.

Edited October 7, 2008 by TJones

[N Judah]

I thought this was interesting:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/int...-suspcious.html

51.5 points or 61.7 points? Disqualifying event? Hrmmmm...

Edited October 7, 2008 by N Judah