2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[KinkaidAlum]

I give Americans a little more credit, especially those tuning in to watch a debate.

That said, McCain didn't say it was Americans who may or may not know of Fannie or Freddie. He directly implied that the questioner didn't know.

It was patronizing of McCain to respond to Oliver's question by saying "I'll bet you, you may never even have heard of them before this crisis." The moment really came across awkwardly, especially when you throw in the race card and the fact that McCain apparently called him the wrong name at the end of his answer.

[sevfiv]

Here is McCain's full response to that question (he calls Oliver Alan/Allen, which was the name of the first person to ask a question):

Well, thank you, Oliver, and that's an excellent question, because as you just described it, bailout, when I believe that it's rescue, because -- because of the greed and excess in Washington and Wall Street, Main Street was paying a very heavy price, and we know that.

I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to Washington to make sure that there were additional protections for the taxpayer in the form of good oversight, in the form of taxpayers being the first to be paid back when our economy recovers -- and it will recover -- and a number of other measures.

But you know, one of the real catalysts, really the match that lit this fire was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I'll bet you, you may never even have heard of them before this crisis.

But you know, they're the ones that, with the encouragement of Sen. Obama and his cronies and his friends in Washington, that went out and made all these risky loans, gave them to people that could never afford to pay back.

And you know, there were some of us that stood up two years ago and said we've got to enact legislation to fix this. We've got to stop this greed and excess.

Meanwhile, the Democrats in the Senate and some -- and some members of Congress defended what Fannie and Freddie were doing. They resisted any change.

Meanwhile, they were getting all kinds of money in campaign contributions. Sen. Obama was the second highest recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history -- in history.

So this rescue package means that we will stabilize markets, we will shore up these institutions. But it's not enough. That's why we're going to have to go out into the housing market and we're going to have to buy up these bad loans and we're going to have to stabilize home values, and that way, Americans, like Alan, can realize the American dream and stay in their home.

But Fannie and Freddie were the catalysts, the match that started this forest fire. There were some of us -- there were some of us that stood up against it. There were others who took a hike.

[sevfiv]

And yeah, the ending was awkward with the brush-off and pointing.

On a sidenote, I remember closing my eyes a couple times when my attention span was hanging on by a thread, and McCain reminded me of a mix between Ronald Reagan and Cotton Hill

[sifuwong]

He means 'electronic'. His first 2 or 3 sentences of that answer was a straight repeat of Obama's words, without acknowledgement. But that's a slip of tongue that some average computer user will catch and correct.

I thought McCain said "online".

[sifuwong]

Yeah I saw that. Has it gone that far for McCain? No handshakes anymore? I like him so much but the closer I look at him, the less I admire him. I'm just waiting for the last straw.

I didn't see it that way. I think McCain was motioning to Obama that his wife wanted to shake hands with Obama. Nothing more.

[N Judah]

Obama said the computer was invented by the defense department for communication purposes. I think he meant the internet.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I give Americans a little more credit, especially those tuning in to watch a debate.

That said, McCain didn't say it was Americans who may or may not know of Fannie or Freddie. He directly implied that the questioner didn't know.

It was patronizing of McCain to respond to Oliver's question by saying "I'll bet you, you may never even have heard of them before this crisis." The moment really came across awkwardly, especially when you throw in the race card and the fact that McCain apparently called him the wrong name at the end of his answer.

Here is McCain's full response to that question (he calls Oliver Alan/Allen, which was the name of the first person to ask a question):

Well, thank you, Oliver, and that's an excellent question, because as you just described it, bailout, when I believe that it's rescue, because -- because of the greed and excess in Washington and Wall Street, Main Street was paying a very heavy price, and we know that.

I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to Washington to make sure that there were additional protections for the taxpayer in the form of good oversight, in the form of taxpayers being the first to be paid back when our economy recovers -- and it will recover -- and a number of other measures.

But you know, one of the real catalysts, really the match that lit this fire was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I'll bet you, you may never even have heard of them before this crisis.

But you know, they're the ones that, with the encouragement of Sen. Obama and his cronies and his friends in Washington, that went out and made all these risky loans, gave them to people that could never afford to pay back.

And you know, there were some of us that stood up two years ago and said we've got to enact legislation to fix this. We've got to stop this greed and excess.

Meanwhile, the Democrats in the Senate and some -- and some members of Congress defended what Fannie and Freddie were doing. They resisted any change.

Meanwhile, they were getting all kinds of money in campaign contributions. Sen. Obama was the second highest recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history -- in history.

So this rescue package means that we will stabilize markets, we will shore up these institutions. But it's not enough. That's why we're going to have to go out into the housing market and we're going to have to buy up these bad loans and we're going to have to stabilize home values, and that way, Americans, like Alan, can realize the American dream and stay in their home.

But Fannie and Freddie were the catalysts, the match that started this forest fire. There were some of us -- there were some of us that stood up against it. There were others who took a hike.

WHAT??? What race card are you referring to? I guess I am missing that. And he just said he may have not ever heard of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. How in the hell is that talking down, get real. It's a simple observation that the average citizen didn't. "May have never" is not an absolute.

And yeah, the ending was awkward with the brush-off and pointing.

On a sidenote, I remember closing my eyes a couple times when my attention span was hanging on by a thread, and McCain reminded me of a mix between Ronald Reagan and Cotton Hill

They immediately shook hands at the end of the debate and were standing next to each other for the photo op when they were blocking Tom's script and he told them so, so they seperated.

I don't know, it was off mike so it's hard to say, but it appeared to me he tapped Barack on the shoulder to get his attention to formally introduce his wife. And while we are cretiquing here, did you notice Mrs. Obama didn't acknowledge anyone. She got out of her seat nodded to her husband and started working the crowd. Mrs. McCain wasn't seated during the debate, she stood in the isle off of stage left. She walked in Mrs. Obama's direction with her hand out after shaking hands with Barack and Mrs. Obama turned away continuing to work the crowd. So if you want to scrutinize, do both sides.

[sevfiv]

So if you want to scrutinize, do both sides.

I agree - it was all awkward

[sarahiki]

They immediately shook hands at the end of the debate and were standing next to each other for the photo op when they were blocking Tom's script and he told them so, so they seperated.

I don't know, it was off mike so it's hard to say, but it appeared to me he tapped Barack on the shoulder to get his attention to formally introduce his wife. And while we are cretiquing here, did you notice Mrs. Obama didn't acknowledge anyone. She got out of her seat nodded to her husband and started working the crowd. Mrs. McCain wasn't seated during the debate, she stood in the isle off of stage left. She walked in Mrs. Obama's direction with her hand out after shaking hands with Barack and Mrs. Obama turned away continuing to work the crowd. So if you want to scrutinize, do both sides.

I am genuinely glad to hear that they had already shaken hands. I missed that. The exchange makes more sense now.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I guess it just depends on whose camera you were watching during the debate. All the networks were so focused on Brokaw's closing remarks that they missed most of the ending.

http://www.click2houston.com/slideshow/pol...366/detail.html

A phtographer actually captured the handshake.

[TJones]

I didn't see it that way. I think McCain was motioning to Obama that his wife wanted to shake hands with Obama. Nothing more.

Agreed, McCain got Obama's attention by patting him on the back and said to Obama that Cindy wanted to say hi. You people have some SERIOUS insecurity issues.

[Mark F. Barnes]

[memebag]

If John McCain is going to get the government to buy bad mortgages and let the current owners negotiate better deals, shouldn't I stop paying my mortgage so I can get in on this?

[CoolBuddy06]

Obama said the computer was invented by the defense department for communication purposes. I think he meant the internet.

Obama was wrong on that too. It was a nice rebound that McCain should dunk nicely but he also dropped the ball and left it for we the people to play around with.

[CoolBuddy06]

Agreed, McCain got Obama's attention by patting him on the back and said to Obama that Cindy wanted to say hi. You people have some SERIOUS insecurity issues.

I am one that hate to be influenced by the others, though it happens sometimes. While you may be right about McCain motioning to Obama that Cindy's saying hi, it's clear that Obama wanted to shake his hand.

If John McCain is going to get the government to buy bad mortgages and let the current owners negotiate better deals, shouldn't I stop paying my mortgage so I can get in on this?

They will put in some disqualifying factors.

[memebag]

Obama said the computer was invented by the defense department for communication purposes. I think he meant the internet.

I thought he meant ENIAC (financed by the US Army during WWII).

They will put in some disqualifying factors.

I'm trying to think of some, but I can't. The people who need help can't pay their mortgages. How do you distinguish them from people who refuse to pay their mortgages, or from people who make foolish investments with the money they should have spent on their mortgages?

[CoolBuddy06]

I thought he meant ENIAC (financed by the US Army during WWII).

I'm trying to think of some, but I can't. The people who need help can't pay their mortgages. How do you distinguish them from people who refuse to pay their mortgages, or from people who make foolish investments with the money they should have spent on their mortgages?

...income, previous year's tax returns, something even more 'ingenious'...

[sifuwong]

Obama was wrong on that too. It was a nice rebound that McCain should dunk nicely but he also dropped the ball and left it for we the people to play around with.

More likely that McCain didn't know either, thus no dunking!!

I thought he meant ENIAC (financed by the US Army during WWII).

I'm trying to think of some, but I can't. The people who need help can't pay their mortgages. How do you distinguish them from people who refuse to pay their mortgages, or from people who make foolish investments with the money they should have spent on their mortgages?

That's the thing. Some people shouldn't be living in 300k homes when they can't afford it or realized that they couldn't after the fact. So how are they going to buy that mortgage and put that person into a 150k home instead? Gets complicated, especially the math.

Edited October 8, 2008 by sifuwong

[memebag]

...income, previous year's tax returns, something even more 'ingenious'...

Let's see if we can figure that out. If someone makes a lot of money and blows most of it on Indian food and video games, let's say, are they not eligible for this mortgage bail out? Why are they less deserving of government help than someone who makes less money and bought too much house or bought a freaky option ARM?

The root problem is that it rewards irresponsibility and punishes responsibility.

[KinkaidAlum]

Mark,

Do you not see race on tv? Oliver was a black man. McCain's response about not knowing Fannie or Freddie was directed towards him.

My black friends noticed that and thought it was a not-so subtle slight.

[memebag]

Mark,

Do you not see race on tv? Oliver was a black man. McCain's response about not knowing Fannie or Freddie was directed towards him.

My black friends noticed that and thought it was a not-so subtle slight.

The thought crossed my mind, too, but I decided it was an unfair generalization. McCain is a very old man. There's no telling what he thinks younger people know, regardless of race.

[sifuwong]

Mark,

Do you not see race on tv? Oliver was a black man. McCain's response about not knowing Fannie or Freddie was directed towards him.

My black friends noticed that and thought it was a not-so subtle slight.

After thinking about this, i don't really think McCain meant it like that. He probably saw that guy as a young naive person. I really do.

Did anyone notice a couple of the audience members dozing off during the debate?...LOL

[CoolBuddy06]

Mark,

Do you not see race on tv? Oliver was a black man. McCain's response about not knowing Fannie or Freddie was directed towards him.

My black friends noticed that and thought it was a not-so subtle slight.

People use the word race/racism loosely these days. McCain's response has nothing to do with race, it was just a little build to a lame punch aimed at Obama. Even most people that did know Fannie and Freddie (like me) didn't know much about them until their failure. All I knew before was that Fannie/Freddie is to mortgages what Sallie is to student loans.

[CoolBuddy06]

Let's see if we can figure that out. If someone makes a lot of money and blows most of it on Indian food and video games, let's say, are they not eligible for this mortgage bail out? Why are they less deserving of government help than someone who makes less money and bought too much house or bought a freaky option ARM?

The root problem is that it rewards irresponsibility and punishes responsibility.

We do a lot of that already: If you work hard, send yourself to college, make decent money you will have to pay for your healthcare and your kids' education. Meanwhile people who didn't take advantage of opportunities that you took will be living off of your tax contributions.

[memebag]

We do a lot of that already: If you work hard, send yourself to college, make decent money you will have to pay for your healthcare and your kids' education. Meanwhile people who didn't take advantage of opportunities that you took will be living off of your tax contributions.

Yeah, but those people are eating gubbamint cheese. I'm not tempted to join their ranks. I am, however, tempted to lower my mortgage payments and keep eating Indian food.

[CoolBuddy06]

Yeah, but those people are eating gubbamint cheese. I'm not tempted to join their ranks. I am, however, tempted to lower my mortgage payments and keep eating Indian food.

'Darn right' on that one. Reminds me of my early days in this country. Someone suggested that we get Harris County gold card while waititng to qualify for insurance at work. My wife and I went to their office on Long street, sat down for a minute or so, looked ourselves in the face and walked out!

Back to topic, I don't see how either candidate can afford that plan, maybe they can if they will only do it for those in foreclosure.

[RedScare]

That's the thing. Some people shouldn't be living in 300k homes when they can't afford it or realized that they couldn't after the fact. So how are they going to buy that mortgage and put that person into a 150k home instead? Gets complicated, especially the math.

Most commentators thought McCain's plan had little chance of actually becoming reality. It certainly sounded like he just threw it out there, with no real intent on explaining what he meant. However, the Bank of America/Countrywide settlement could provide some guidance. There appears to be two main criteria, one that the home be worth less than the outstanding principle, and two, that the mortgage be an ARM. The settlement allows the interest and principal to be cut so that the resulting fixed rate loan payment amount to no more than 34% of the borrower's income. I suppose the 34% threshold could also be a third criterion for qualification.

With some thought, it is possible to sufficiently limit participation as to make it workable. Obviously, most Houstonians would be disqualified on the basis that our market has not dropped much, meaning most of our homes have equity. And, most of the loans would not be upside down by very much, meaning the payoff to the bank might only be a few thousand more than the new loan principal. Remember that there are only about 1 to 2 million foreclosures per year currently, and not all of those foreclosures would qualify for renegotiation.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Mark,

Do you not see race on tv? Oliver was a black man. McCain's response about not knowing Fannie or Freddie was directed towards him.

My black friends noticed that and thought it was a not-so subtle slight.

I think you are so far off the reservation on this, I really don't know how to respond. Talk about totally reaching beyond anything remotely imaginable. I could just as easily accuse you of being a racist to think such a thing, just because McCain is white. Do you see what I'm leading to. This sounds like an OJ defense, he's screaming racism now that he's convicted. ACORN is crying racism because they raided their office and found thousand of bogus ballots filled out illegally.

It makes a person no less a racist to try and use racism as an excuse for no pliable reason. Racism comes in many shapes and forms. There is a big double standard in the world today, and it's got to be examined a little closer. I'll give you some examples and then get back on the subject of this thread. And before you start freaking out and flipping, read my entire post, to fully understand where I am coming from.

1. Black Entertainment Channel (BET)
   
2. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP)
   
3. Congressional Black Caucus (CBC)
   
4. United Negro College Fund (UNCF)
   
5. The Organization of Black Airline Pilots Inc. (OBAP)
   
6. National Association of Black Military Women (NABMW)
   
7. Ohio Young Black Democrats (OYBD)
   

Now every one of these organizations are perfectly legit and worthwhile organizations. Every one of these do outstanding work in representing their original charter, and their prospective agendas. But you let the identifier of color or race be switched out for White, Caucasian, or what have you, and immediately it will be label racist. Whether it is or it isn't it will be immediately treated as though it is.

The only reason I address this is that you have thrown down the race card in an election that most obviously is between two gentlemen of different races. And this election is highly racially divided, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. There are people on both sides that will vote for Barack Obama for no other reason than the fact that he is an African American, and there are those on the other side, that will not vote for him for the very same reason. To those people that fall into those two categories, they are both racists. To them it doesn't matter what his views are or what his agenda is, or whether or not he's qualified or not. To them it doesn't matter they will be casting their vote strictly based on race and for no other reason, and that my friend is textbook racism on both sides of the coin. If anyone believes that it doesn't exist or that there are not people that feel that way, they are not in touch with reality. When that my friend, IS reality. There are people in this very thread that feel that way. They may or may not come out and say it, but they feel that way. Some do it out of inexperience, and haven't lived through enough life to be able to see the difference. Or there are some that may have too much experience and are just plain set in their ways, and won't change. But racism is still in society, it always will be, it's part of human nature. Some people just chose to overcome it, or work at controling it.

Regardless how this election comes out, history is going to be made. A new page in life is going to be started, and a new barrier will have been broken down. That my friends is progress, and progress is always a good thing. You may not like it always, but things are coming around. I hate to think that not everyone will see it that way, and there will be some, but just because your guy doesn't win, you will have witnessed history. Those of us that are old enough to have lived through the late 50's and early 60's, that really appreciate America and all it's history, will have a smile on our faces if Barack Obama wins, because I still remember White and Colored water fountains, I still remember segregated buses, and schools. I remember Ms. Stella (my grandmothers housekeeper) having to eat in the back of the restaurants in downtown. Those days aren't that far gone. But whether or not I fully agree with Barack Obama or not, is beside the point, because I don't agree with all of John McCain's stuff either. But either of which are elected, I will have some pride in knowing, I witness the first Black Man become President, or I will see the first Woman become Vice President, and will be proud to be an American on that day. Damn the partisan politics aside, if you really love your country and care about it as some try and make us believe, you will have a sense of pride, because it is a big step in the 232 years of our democracy. Regardless of the winner, I will be proud, if for no other reason than I do love my country and take great pride in being from the United States of America. I am just as proud a Texan, and feel just as close to my home state. I spent almost 20 years of my life living abroad, some places not as pleasant as the others, but there was never any doubt in anyone's mind that met me, that I was American First and foremost. There was no gray area in my pride.

[RedScare]

'Darn right' on that one. Reminds me of my early days in this country. Someone suggested that we get Harris County gold card while waititng to qualify for insurance at work. My wife and I went to their office on Long street, sat down for a minute or so, looked ourselves in the face and walked out!

Back to topic, I don't see how either candidate can afford that plan, maybe they can if they will only do it for those in foreclosure.

Perhaps I am reading this wrong. Did you not apply for the card because of the others who were applying? This sounds like those parents who do not apply for AFDC because they are 'too good' to apply for assistance. Pride can be a dangerous thing.

[RedScare]

I think you are so far off the reservation on this, I really don't know how to respond. Talk about totally reaching beyond anything remotely imaginable.

Mark, you could have saved yourself a lot of typing by simply acknowledging that some old white men (especially in the south) DO have subconscious mannerisms that suggest a subtle racism. To this day, I have never forgotten watching a basketball game on TV with my grandfather, who was born slightly before the turn of the 20th century. It was 1974 (I was 14), and we were watching my all-time childhood basketball hero, David Thompson. Thompson was performing his usual incredible acrobatic feats against some other hapless college team in North Carolina, and my grandfather and I were duly impressed. After one particularly spectacular play, my grandfather stated that, "he's pretty good for a n____r. I sat there dumbfounded, but said nothing. Here, DT was my hero, and Grandpop just called him a n____r. But, that's just the way things were back then. Grandpop was a good man, and if you asked him, he meant no harm by it. But, it happened.

As for McCain, I make no judgements. It IS possible that he made that statement as a subtle racist comment. It is ALSO possible that McCain did not make it as subconsciously racist at all, that he holds this disdain for ALL voters, Black or White. But, to say that it is not remotely imaginable that 71 year old white men cannot have subtle racist thoughts is...well...reaching beyond anything remotely imaginable.