2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[Montrose1100]

I've come to realize, that I hate both candidates equally now, and I'm not voting this year.

[sarahiki]

I've come to realize, that I hate both candidates equally now, and I'm not voting this year.

Of course you don't HAVE to vote, and you don't have to like either candidate, so that's fine. But I always wonder, when someone says that's why they're not voting: isn't there SOME minute difference, something that one of them promises to do or not do, that affects you? Whether it's taxes or healthcare or women's rights or gay rights or foreign policy, these guys are miles apart on most issues. If any one of the issues matters to you, there probably is a candidate who would therefore be a better choice.

I guess I mean to ask, not tell. Isn't there a candidate who is a better choice for you, because of at least one issue? I'm genuinely curious, because I am so baffled by undecided voters, and non-voters.

[BryanS]

I've come to realize, that I hate both candidates equally now, and I'm not voting this year.

... you have more choices than just "A" or "B" ...

[barracuda]

Of course you don't HAVE to vote, and you don't have to like either candidate, so that's fine. But I always wonder, when someone says that's why they're not voting: isn't there SOME minute difference, something that one of them promises to do or not do, that affects you? Whether it's taxes or healthcare or women's rights or gay rights or foreign policy, these guys are miles apart on most issues. If any one of the issues matters to you, there probably is a candidate who would therefore be a better choice.

I guess I mean to ask, not tell. Isn't there a candidate who is a better choice for you, because of at least one issue? I'm genuinely curious, because I am so baffled by undecided voters, and non-voters.

Exactly. I can understand getting frustrated with certain aspects of the political process (like negative advertisements and dirty smear campaigns). But there are huge differences in the way the major candidates view the issues. I can't fathom how anyone can give up his or her vote in the future of the country, even if the campaign process gets ugly sometimes.

[memebag]

I can't fathom how anyone can give up his or her vote in the future of the country, even if the campaign process gets ugly sometimes.

If I was a McCain supporter before this election, I'd have a hard time voting for him after picking Palin for VP and all the kowtowing he's done to the Republican party. None of that would make me support Obama, but it could sure turn me off of McCain.

Edited October 13, 2008 by memebag

[Montrose1100]

... you have more choices than just "A" or "B" ...

I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

[ricco67]

I have to agree.

Montrose, you aren't picking a candidate because you LIKE them, you're picking them for what they may represent you for topics that's the most important to you.

I don't like McCain OR Obama, but McCain more closely matches what I believe in then Obama.

Just reconsider your decision not to vote, as long as you vote for a candidate that is dealing with the issues that are important to you.

[KinkaidAlum]

The Flyers video is pretty funny. I wondered what in the Hell either Palin or the Flyers were thinking with that decision.

Philly is a BLUE city. And, Joe Six Pack can't afford NHL prices.

[RedScare]

The Flyers video is pretty funny. I wondered what in the Hell either Palin or the Flyers were thinking with that decision.

Philly is a BLUE city. And, Joe Six Pack can't afford NHL prices.

The Flyers' owner is a big Republican, and has donated to McCain's campaign. He basically ignored that his fans see things differently in bringing Palin to the rink. I understand his thinking this would be a great publicity stunt, but knowing the fans would boo lustily AND knowing it would be splashed all over youtube, you'd think he would've thought better of the idea.

Apparently not.

[TheNiche]

If I was a McCain supporter before this election, I'd have a hard time voting for him after picking Palin for VP and all the kowtowing he's done to the Republican party. None of that would make me support Obama, but it could sure turn me off of McCain.

Yep. By giving anything more than lip service to the evangelical right, he has made it very difficult for me to rationalize his actions. But I am also convinced that neither candidate is at all genuine. They can't be. Each campaign has a multitude of Carl Roves interpreting polling and focus group data, figuring out how people respond to each and every miniscule action by the candidate and how to turn the press one way or the other, all toward the end of an electoral college victory. If candidates said what they really wanted to...as I believe that they were around the outset of the primaries (and you've got to admit that both candidates came off very differently then) then both candidates would have exploitable weaknesses.

So I'm going on McCain's record, which is imperfect but generally good, that of a decent guy...we've definitely seen worse Republican candidates that I'd prefer to Obama. Obama doesn't have much of a record in national politics, but his book and his history in local Chicago politics, combined with his practiced charisma and his penchant for dodging hard questions in interviews, is frightening enough to me that I just can't vote for the guy.

[ricco67]

So I'm going on McCain's record, which is imperfect but generally good, that of a decent guy...we've definitely seen worse Republican candidates that I'd prefer to Obama. Obama doesn't have much of a record in national politics, but his book and his history in local Chicago politics, combined with his practiced charisma and his penchant for dodging hard questions in interviews, is frightening enough to me that I just can't vote for the guy.

I'm also going by experience as well. If Obama held office a few more years, or perhaps even held LOCAL office for a significant amount of time, you can get a good grasp of what the man believes in. As it is, McCain has experience and a proven track record, but like you said, it's imperfect, but it IS a record we can look back on and see what he may do in the future.

In fact, the past may not be well represented as to how he will be in the future.

Now one important tidbit; Remember, G.W. only held office in Texas as a for a term and a half (6 years) as his only experience in politics before winning the presidency and look how THAT turned out.

[westguy]

Lincoln had one term in the US House of Representatives before he became the president. Buchanan was a Senator, Secretary of State, a diplomat, a member of the House, etc. There is no doubt which one was a better leader, though.

You're speaking as if Bush's experience had anything to do with his awful presidency - that it wasn't his character which included absolute moral certainty. Obama is a pragmatist, which is quite the opposite. McCain's camp has a lot in common with the current president in this regard. Palin? Definitely. McCain? Seemingly.

Edited October 13, 2008 by westguy

[BryanS]

No one booed this woman when she attended Flyers' games...

A REAL patriotic woman.

I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

...you hate Palin... but would want to see Huckabee instead? You must be a fun person to date.

Edited October 13, 2008 by BryanS

[N Judah]

Wouldn't this be fun if we lived in a swing state?

[barracuda]

I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

The funny thing about Mike Huckabee is that he seems very reasonable and likable in the interviews I've seen. He can be very amusing and self-deprecating. But from what I've read regarding his policy ideas, I think there's some craziness underneath that charming persona. But I guess that's besides the point since he's out of the race.

I'm glad you agree that Palin is unfit to serve the highest office. But at least consider a third party candidate to voice your disapproval. It won't count in the race, but if enough people vote their conscious, it might send a message to future candidates.

[KinkaidAlum]

Is anyone else wondering about the bad judgement of bringing your daughters, including the 7 year old, to Philadelphia to drop the puck at a Flyers game? I actually feel bad for the girls, especially the young one. She can't possibly grasp why people do not like her mother. Additionally, shouldn't they be in school? They are everywhere with her and it's not like it's an easy trip back home after a long weekend.

[sarahiki]

Is anyone else wondering about the bad judgement of bringing your daughters, including the 7 year old, to Philadelphia to drop the puck at a Flyers game? I actually feel bad for the girls, especially the young one. She can't possibly grasp why people do not like her mother. Additionally, shouldn't they be in school? They are everywhere with her and it's not like it's an easy trip back home after a long weekend.

If I were going to talk about her judgement in these matters, which I try not to since I really do try not to judge other mothers, I would wonder why:

1. she drags a 4-month old baby out late at night to be pranced around after speeches

2. she enters a race like this, knowing her teen daughter is pregnant, and knowing she will reveal this to the media, and knowing the embarrassment her daughter will face as a result

3. talks about her baby's health condition and how she will advocate for children's health, but when the issue of children's health is then taken up by her opponents, she accuses them of cheaply taking advantage of her children

4. after exposing her family to national audiences, issuing press releases about them, and talking about their personal issues in her speeches, she asks the media to respect their privacy, then cries foul when that wish is not 100% complied with.

She is the one exposing her children to all of this, not the media, not anyone else. And as a mother, I can't help but to wonder how on earth she could do this to them, especially to the pregnant daughter and the little baby.

[TheNiche]

Lincoln had one term in the US House of Representatives before he became the president. Buchanan was a Senator, Secretary of State, a diplomat, a member of the House, etc. There is no doubt which one was a better leader, though.

You're speaking as if Bush's experience had anything to do with his awful presidency - that it wasn't his character which included absolute moral certainty. Obama is a pragmatist, which is quite the opposite. McCain's camp has a lot in common with the current president in this regard. Palin? Definitely. McCain? Seemingly.

Lincoln and Bush have a lot of parallels. Both of them violated habeus corpus. Both of them have presided over civil wars. Both of them were widely reviled by citizens but redeemed for their war policy in close but successful re-election campaigns. Both of them were well-spoken (and yes, if you watch the old election footage, Bush is actually pretty well-spoken, even if he does come across as a frat boy). ...and neither actually had very much meaningful national experience.

Never mind the policy; I see more parallels in terms of biography, experience, personality, and persona between Lincoln and Bush2 and even between Bush2 and Obama, in some ways, than I could even start to make between Bush2 and McCain. And I think that Biden was an excellent Veep selection for the much the same reason that I think that McCain is preferable to Obama generally (that is, before policy analysis).

[infinite_jim]

The Flyers' owner is a big Republican, and has donated to McCain's campaign. He basically ignored that his fans see things differently in bringing Palin to the rink. I understand his thinking this would be a great publicity stunt, but knowing the fans would boo lustily AND knowing it would be splashed all over youtube, you'd think he would've thought better of the idea.

Apparently not.

Perhaps they were protesting with boos over the politicization of a publicly funded venue?

[Montrose1100]

The funny thing about Mike Huckabee is that he seems very reasonable and likable in the interviews I've seen. He can be very amusing and self-deprecating. But from what I've read regarding his policy ideas, I think there's some craziness underneath that charming persona. But I guess that's besides the point since he's out of the race.

I'm glad you agree that Palin is unfit to serve the highest office. But at least consider a third party candidate to voice your disapproval. It won't count in the race, but if enough people vote their conscious, it might send a message to future candidates.

Sounds just like me. He's for gay rights, and that really appealed to me... (Well so did Hillary Clinton, but I think I would move overseas if she became president). I'm just fed up of people telling me their parents sent them to a "Mercy House" or a therapist or psyc. ward because their parents found out their gay... Like its a mental disease. And that makes me sick.

[barracuda]

Sounds just like me. He's for gay rights, and that really appealed to me... (Well so did Hillary Clinton, but I think I would move overseas if she became president). I'm just fed up of people telling me their parents sent them to a "Mercy House" or a therapist or psyc. ward because their parents found out their gay... Like its a mental disease. And that makes me sick.

Wait...are you talking about Mike Huckabee? He's no friend to gay rights. He warned that gay marriage threatens civilization, called homosexuality sinful, and suggested that homosexuality could "pose a dangerous public health risk."

Huckabee even once suggested that AIDS patients should be quarantined. Like I said, he has massive amounts of craziness hidden behind that easy-going and amiable facade.

http://www.gaynewswatch.com/Page.cfm?PageID=22&SID=3941

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7270.html

http://www.nysun.com/national/huckabee-pus...patients/67730/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/08/h...ar_n_75924.html

P.S. - Obama isn't perfect on issues related to gay rights, but he's a lot more progressive than McCain.

[Montrose1100]

Wait...are you talking about Mike Huckabee? He's no friend to gay rights. He warned that gay marriage threatens civilization, called homosexuality sinful, and suggested that homosexuality could "pose a dangerous public health risk."

Huckabee even once suggested that AIDS patients should be quarantined. Like I said, he has massive amounts of craziness hidden behind that easy-going and amiable facade.

http://www.gaynewswatch.com/Page.cfm?PageID=22&SID=3941

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7270.html

http://www.nysun.com/national/huckabee-pus...patients/67730/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/08/h...ar_n_75924.html

P.S. - Obama isn't perfect on issues related to gay rights, but he's a lot more progressive than McCain.

I could have sworn...

But I'm more worried about the Economy then my rights. My country before me. I'd rather be a rich 2nd class citizen, then a poor one.

[Mark F. Barnes]

In case someone hasn't read the economic plans for both canidates, here they are:

Good points in both of them, enjoy the read.

[sifuwong]

Is anyone else wondering about the bad judgement of bringing your daughters, including the 7 year old, to Philadelphia to drop the puck at a Flyers game? I actually feel bad for the girls, especially the young one. She can't possibly grasp why people do not like her mother. Additionally, shouldn't they be in school? They are everywhere with her and it's not like it's an easy trip back home after a long weekend.

Why not? Sara is enjoying her short lived fame. After this election, you might rarely hear from her ever again.

[westguy]

I could have sworn...

But I'm more worried about the Economy then my rights. My country before me. I'd rather be a rich 2nd class citizen, then a poor one.

So why do you believe Obama would be bad for the economy? Pretax income has been higher across the board under Democratic presidents. That leads to higher tax revenues, which helps local governments to sustain lower rates.

[RedScare]

So why do you believe Obama would be bad for the economy? Pretax income has been higher across the board under Democratic presidents. That leads to higher tax revenues, which helps local governments to sustain lower rates.

Not to mention McCain's stated ignorance of economic matters, and his illogical actions regarding the current crisis. Claiming you are worried about the economy, then stating the least economy minded candidate makes no sense whatsoever. Granted, neither candidate has been stellar, but McCain has been the worst.

There must be some unstated reason, because all of your stated ones seem backwards.

[TheNiche]

So why do you believe Obama would be bad for the economy? Pretax income has been higher across the board under Democratic presidents. That leads to higher tax revenues, which helps local governments to sustain lower rates.

Yeah, because all that matters is that a random person with a (D) attached to the end of their name control one branch of government. It does not matter who is elected to congress, who's on the supreme court, who controls the Federal Reserve, or whether any of these aspects of government were previously administered by different people or controlled by different parties.

Oh, and that the economy began to falter in the last part of Clinton's term...surely that was only driven by the market expectations that a Republican would drive the economy into the ground. It had absolutely nothing to do with irrational exuberance in a particular sector.

[KinkaidAlum]

Sounds just like me. He's for gay rights, and that really appealed to me... (Well so did Hillary Clinton, but I think I would move overseas if she became president). I'm just fed up of people telling me their parents sent them to a "Mercy House" or a therapist or psyc. ward because their parents found out their gay... Like its a mental disease. And that makes me sick.

You are confusing me with this.

You are looking to the Republican Party to help you with gay rights?

You really should google search some information about the Republican Party's stance on gay rights. Hell, just read the Texas Republican Party platform and you'll see where the parents that send their kids to "ex-gay" ministries are getting their information.

You're in college now. There's no reason for you to be confusing these issues.

[TJones]

I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

Montrose, I am right there with you, but now it is a matter of OUR votes being able to put in the lesser of two evils. Just think of it that way, and your voice IS being heard.

[Montrose1100]

So why do you believe Obama would be bad for the economy? Pretax income has been higher across the board under Democratic presidents. That leads to higher tax revenues, which helps local governments to sustain lower rates.

Because the Democrats told the banks to loan to everyone, without the bank to have some collateral like house titles... So the Banks eventually got greedy and thats why we're in this mess.

Not to mention McCain's stated ignorance of economic matters, and his illogical actions regarding the current crisis. Claiming you are worried about the economy, then stating the least economy minded candidate makes no sense whatsoever. Granted, neither candidate has been stellar, but McCain has been the worst.

There must be some unstated reason, because all of your stated ones seem backwards.

Well I'm not relying just on McCain to fix our problems, His staff and a lot of people in Washington will help. What other reasons could I have? Why would I waste my, and everyone else's time?

Oh, and that the economy began to falter in the last part of Clinton's term...surely that was only driven by the market expectations that a Republican would drive the economy into the ground. It had absolutely nothing to do with irrational exuberance in a particular sector.

Ring around the Rosie.

You are confusing me with this.

You are looking to the Republican Party to help you with gay rights?

You really should google search some information about the Republican Party's stance on gay rights. Hell, just read the Texas Republican Party platform and you'll see where the parents that send their kids to "ex-gay" ministries are getting their information.

You're in college now. There's no reason for you to be confusing these issues.

No, I am not looking to the Republican party for Gay Rights... How did you get that? I am looking to the Republican party for a better state of health of the country... And I said I am willing to sacrifice being a 2nd class Citizen for a better economy... I'm pro-choice as well, even though Palin is against it. I hate her.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Montrose1100