memebag Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 It simply is what it is...a shopping mall in downtown.I thought that, too, at first. But replacing 3 blocks (and the public space between them) with a shopping mall (entirely private space) isn't just a shopping mall in downtown. I see people here who are excited about it because it will be like downtown, but better. It will be cleaner, safer, denser, happier, something. It's not as blatant as Sugar Land's Town Center, but it's part of the same movement. They are replacing public space with private space. They are building a downtown ride.You can (legally) take photographs from public sidewalks. You can't inside malls. People have no right to "peaceably assemble" in a shopping mall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 (edited) Well, they are replacing 3 parking lots with the building. Not sure why that matters.I very much agree with you about the opinions of fellow posters. However, I would argue that their opinions are not the decisive factor in deciding whether the mall meets the definition. It is the opinions and intent of the developer and his architects that matter. Besides, there are still numerous concerns about the "homeless". It would appear our fellow posters are concerned that HP resembles a real downtown a bit much for their tastes.EDIT: The sidewalks are still public, and are the only public spaces in any downtown, old or new. Edited November 16, 2007 by RedScare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 The theme-food, gospel brunch and company store crap is offensive, but House of Blues would provide booking competition for Warehouse and Continental Club, which will be a good thing for live music fans. And, possibly reach people who wouldn't have ventured downtown at all. Good example, recently my 65 year old dad in Katy wanted to go see Johnny Winter, but his only experience with the venue was ads in the Houston Press, and was not sure what he was getting himself into. Same show in HOB he would've gone without a second thought.The Continental would in no way be effected by a HOB. HOB is a very large venue which will house mid-level national & regional acts as does Warehouse Live, and The Meridian. The Continental almost exclusively has either regional acts, or small national acts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Well, they are replacing 3 parking lots with the building. Not sure why that matters.I'm not exactly sure, either. I'm don't think I'm articulating my opposition properly.EDIT: The sidewalks are still public, and are the only public spaces in any downtown, old or new.Are the sidewalks between the 3 blocks still there? If so, will they be public or private space?Parks are still public space. I once read that the original plan for Philadelphia and some other early east coast cities resembled checkerboards, with alternating squares of public and private space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyc_tex Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) I thought that, too, at first. But replacing 3 blocks (and the public space between them) with a shopping mall (entirely private space) isn't just a shopping mall in downtown. I see people here who are excited about it because it will be like downtown, but better. It will be cleaner, safer, denser, happier, something. It's not as blatant as Sugar Land's Town Center, but it's part of the same movement. They are replacing public space with private space. They are building a downtown ride.You can (legally) take photographs from public sidewalks. You can't inside malls. People have no right to "peaceably assemble" in a shopping mall."Pomo" isn't dead. By its very 'nature' it can't die. Maybe as a style of architecture or other art forms, but the possibly of a postmodern period or a 'postmodern' culture doesn't 'die'. It may be replaced. One of Eco's articles in Travels of Hypermodernity, as I recall, looks at the facsimile of LBJ's oval office that is in the LBJ Library in Austin. Intriguing analysis. Although I agree that much of America is ostensibly becoming private 'space' this is not a new phenomena. Many spaces today that are theoretically 'public' were initially constructed as private space for select populations (i.e. city parks, museums, trains, ect....). In some ways, space has become radically democratized in the last 150 years. Edited November 17, 2007 by nyc_tex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesternGulf Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) I wish they would open an Apple store. I know it won't happen, but I can dream can't I?I like to see these type of stores in urban settings because they can get pretty creative on their street presence and how they use their store fronts. Hopefully Houston's Downtown retail district is not confined to this area around the Pavilions. I would love to see how an H&M, Apple, or a Diesel would use those historic buildings with storefronts in the historic district near the Preston Station. The Byrd's Loft building has tons of potential for retail spaces like that and so does the space next door, if that hasn't been filled up yet. I haven't been paying attention. Edited November 17, 2007 by WesternGulf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I like to see these type of stores in urban settings because they can get pretty creative on their street presence and how they use their store fronts. Hopefully Houston's Downtown retail district is not confined to this area around the Pavilions. I would love to see how an H&M, Apple, or a Diesel would use those historic buildings with storefronts in the historic district near the Preston Station. The Byrd's Loft building has tons of potential for retail spaces like that and so does the space next door, if that hasn't been filled up yet. I haven't been paying attention. I'm pretty sure most of those storefronts are still empty. Actually an Apple store might not be that bad of an idea. The nearest one is in the Galleria and the other one is in a mall even farther away. Houston doesn't have any non-mall Apple stores (but I think Dallas and Austin do). And a downtown location would be convenient to all of the students at Rice, Baylor, UT, UH, UHD, Texas Women's Univeristy, etc (I know Rice and Baylor don't have on-campus computer stores, not sure about the others). Not to mention everybody else who lives closer to downtown than the Galleria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I'm pretty sure most of those storefronts are still empty. still empty? one of those has been at least 2 restaurant incarnations. if the places suck, they will close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 i hope they stay where they are. the older building creates a nice atmosphere.i ate dinner there this evening and asked the mgr what their plans were. luckily she said that mkt square location will remain as is and the HP location will be another. i think she said they planned on opening 3 next yr with the other 2 being in the burbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 (edited) When I say still empty I mean still empty since last year. I have no idea what was there before that, but I guess it must have sucked. Edited November 17, 2007 by Jax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchtastic Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 The Continental would in no way be effected by a HOB. HOB is a very large venue which will house mid-level national & regional acts as does Warehouse Live, and The Meridian. The Continental almost exclusively has either regional acts, or small national acts.Not even. HoB could and will agressively book small regional acts. Direct competition with Continental (which I frequent) . They will have the small room , close to Continental's capacity. Problem? No, downtown can accomodate more acts at any given time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Not even. HoB could and will agressively book small regional acts. Direct competition with Continental (which I frequent) . They will have the small room , close to Continental's capacity. Problem? No, downtown can accomodate more acts at any given time.Where do you get your information from?....HOB DOES NOT agressively court small regional acts in the context were discussing... Will they have small regional acts on weekdays? Sure, any large club in the country does, but these venues are not designed to handle low draw bands, simpy because hey can't afford to. How you can compare The Continental to an HOB or the like is confusing to me as there completely different venues, and will in many cases bring in completely different genres of Rock N Roll. Let me ask you...Since the Engine Room and The Continental are similar in size, and within 2 miles of each other, are they in competition with each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchtastic Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Let me ask you...Since the Engine Room and The Continental are similar in size, and within 2 miles of each other, are they in competition with each other?Really! The acts booking Continental and a potential HoB ? Let's play, Roy Head and Barbara Lynn couldn't fill Thursday on the small stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkjones98 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 It is symbolic of the ongoing HAIF struggle between those who define cities by who lives and works in them, versus those who define them by how they look as they drive by them on the freeway.That was really funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorAggie Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Are the sidewalks between the 3 blocks still there? If so, will they be public or private space?Yes, the sidewalks are still there. I can't see why they would become private space. We would've seen or heard something (I would hope) if that were the case, similar to Bolsover with the Sonoma development in the Village. The 'private' space will be the crosswalks over those intersections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I can't see why they would become private space.Why wouldn't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Because it's not common for sidewalks to be considered private space... is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Because it's not common for sidewalks to be considered private space... is it?It is if they become part of a shopping mall. Is there any way to find out for sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) I don't think there is, unless you want to email the developer. From this rendering, it looks to me like a public sidewalk, you never know... My best guess is that the "exterior" sidewalks (previously existing sidewalks) will remain public space, while the "interior" sidewalks (between the two buildings on each block) will most likely be private space. Edited November 21, 2007 by Jax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I don't think there is, unless you want to email the developer. From this rendering, it looks to me like a public sidewalk, you never know... My best guess is that the "exterior" sidewalks (previously existing sidewalks) will remain public space, while the "interior" sidewalks (between the two buildings on each block) will most likely be private space. You are exactly correct, Jax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwright1 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States. Someone mentioned their big house, big truck and huge yard. That is fine. All big metropolitan areas have this. But for god's sake have an option for Houston citizens. Not all Houstonians love cars, freeways and strip malls. If that is all you have to offer visitors, business travelers and your own citizens then you are lower than low. To hell with tunnels and malls and everything enclosed. The weather/heat is no excuse. Is it hot now? I had a great opportunity to move to Houston but the more I thought about it the less excited I got. So I decided to stay in Seattle. At least I can walk the streets, bike around and visit our thriving downtown which I truely love. Houston you have so much potential. Maybe one day dt Houston will look sort of like dt Seattle. ...and build some housing downtown. It is probably the most important element to a vibrant dt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Well I wouldn't say Houston is a laughing stock - at least I hope not. And like it or not, weather is going to have an impact on how cities develop. It may be pleasant in Houston in November, but that doesn't make the May-September weather nicer. To me the tunnels are a great way in which pedestrian areas have adapted to the local climate. If anything, I would argue for exanding the tunnel network. I've never been to Seattle apart from the airport, but how representative are those photos of downtown? The prominent signs for Barneys, Tiffany, J Crew etc lead me to think this may be a bit more "upscale" an area than is the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwright1 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 It is downtown Seattle and its more than just upscale. Local retailers, discounters like Ross and Bed/Bath & Beyond, markets and just about everything else. I would disagree with you on the tunnels. Please don't expand that. If New Orleans can live without tunnels Houston can too. And they have or had by far the most vibrant dt in the south. Not saying getting rid of whats there but certainly not expanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Is that kind of downtown something that Seattle set out intentionally to create? Do they do anything to foster it? I have nothing against vibrant pedestrian-oriented cities, but I do wonder if that kind of development can be successfully retrofitted to a city once it is auto-oriented. A lot of what people think of as an urban environment has to do with scale, of buildings, streets, and sidewalks. Once a city is auto-oriented can it really return to an urban scale? It seems at best you get isolated "urban" developments surrounded by parking garages so people can drive in to sample an "urban" experience. If that is the outcome, I'm not sure I see a clear advantage over Houston's current development scheme, with malls and tunnels and such (that is only referring to physical layout, not broader concerns like the environmental impact of different development models). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 And like it or not, weather is going to have an impact on how cities develop. It may be pleasant in Houston in November, but that doesn't make the May-September weather nicer.Ch 11 had a story related to weather yesterday. merchants in the "walkable" shopping areas such as rice village had few customers while the enclosed malls were bustling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States.Oh my god! You mean, the other cities are ... laughing at us???Quick! Stop spreading out! Build bike paths! More sidewalks cafes! We have to change everything that attracted people for the last 50 years! We have to become VIBRANT!!! Everyone, start vibrating!Won't someone think of the setbacks? We finally have a reason to densify: peer pressure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Ch 11 had a story related to weather yesterday. merchants in the "walkable" shopping areas such as rice village had few customers while the enclosed malls were bustling.Shocker!It's Thanksgiving weekend. Black Friday. Everyone knows that insane people head to the malls to get their "bargains."That said, I do think Houstonians are "soft." We Houstonians have gotten so used to being inside (whether it's your home, car, work, tunnels, malls, etc...) that any type of weather excuse is now used from everything from why people don't shop, walk, attend sporting events, etc...It's kinda sad. I read the UH sports boards and people were talking about how small the crowd was yesterday in large part due to 50 degrees and rainy weather. I attended the BC/Miami game yesterday. It was 28 at kickoff with wind gusts in the 30s and the place was PACKED. It's time for Houstonians to GO OUTSIDE. Maybe it's because we spend so much time indoors that we don't really care how ugly our city can be from the outside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States.I stopped reading after this sentence. The "simple truth" is that someone who claims Houston is THE laughing stock of the US is "simply" full of it.Perfect? No. Areas to improve? Absolutely. Laughing stock? Only your post. I am sorry I wasted 30 seconds of my life responding to your hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Shocker!It's Thanksgiving weekend. Black Friday. Everyone knows that insane people head to the malls to get their "bargains."The ones that were shocked were the merchants.It's time for Houstonians to GO OUTSIDE. Maybe it's because we spend so much time indoors that we don't really care how ugly our city can be from the outside?It's about comfort for most. People would rather take advantage of technology such as AC/heating vs. living primitively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmat Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 But for god's sake have an option for Houston citizens.Options for single professionals, families who make more than 100k and the rich you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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