GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[HtownWxBoy]

So, if you're not saying Houston could become like Singapore or Hong Kong, what are you saying? By adding video screens to the outside of a shopping mall, Houston will become more ... what?

I wasn't saying anything about the screens... was just saying Houston shouldn't let the fact that it's hot and humid a couple months out of the year from keeping it from working on becoming a more attractive city and bigger tourist destination.

My point is, it isn't about the climate or the flatness as much as it is about how a city is designed and planned. Did I say planned? Now I am in trouble...

I agree... Houston needs to work on becoming more dense and urban in my opinion.

[dbigtex56]

Video screens can't change that. Doctors, as a rule, will not be impressed by them. Video screens will attract primitive peoples who haven't seen flashing, moving lights before. Expect an influx of people from deep in the Amazon rainforest.

I must disagree. After the redevelopment of Times Square, the majority of visitors do not arrive wearing loincloths, and even the exaulted doctor or two has been known to enjoy the spectacle.

[Trae]

I agree... Houston needs to work on becoming more dense and urban in my opinion.

More rail would definitely help the city out. We need to get the move on with the inner City light rail lines, and then commuter to the suburbs.

[HtownWxBoy]

More rail would definitely help the city out. We need to get the move on with the inner City light rail lines, and then commuter to the suburbs.

Yup.

[sowanome]

I think if you look back you'll see that I said video screens were not the solution. But yes, it would be cool to get the indigenous Amazoneans to visit Houston.

Toronto is as flat as Houston and uncomfortably cold more months than Houston is uncomfortably hot, yet it has appeal. Miami hotter and just as flat and it has appeal (okay so Miami has the ocean). Montreal is even colder than Toronto for even longer (6+ months of uncomfortable cold) and has a few hills (which don't impress me) yet it is considered desirable. I don't know about Chicago but I always considered it flat and cold. Dubai is in the middle of a desert, hotter than Houston and sandy, and it has appeal.

My point is, it isn't about the climate or the flatness as much as it is about how a city is designed and planned. Did I say planned? Now I am in trouble...

JAX I Agree with everything that you are saying!!! Great job, because a few weeks ago, while I was walking around Chicago freezing (Late April and a high of 45 degrees) ... off, I just thought about how angry I was, but I crossed the river at Michigan Ave and was in awe of the architectual beauty and the sight of hundreds of tourists (Tourists kill this one specific area of Chicago 85% of the time. Just one area.) walking around freezing. The cold weather gets ridiculous up here at times (I've lived between chicago and wisconsin for a few years..I know cold weather and people talk about weather here, bc it's the biggest negative to the City. "Hey its freezing " a Chicagoans response " Hey, but the summers are nice", yet its June 1st and the last cold front is swinging thru with a high of 63 and low of 50??) So in response to people not liking houston...tell me a city that they love and I can find people that are miserable there..The winters bring about depression, not the summer. People just dont wake up angry in the summer like they do in the winter.

Every city has a glaring negative and if you live somewhere long enough, you will find many of them. However, when I crossed the river it clicked to me that Houston does not have that one glaring positive (that the Superstar Cities (NY, San Fran, Boston and LA) have, no chicago didn't make the list with this group of economists. However, I wanted to point out that there is a second wave of cities that are up and coming (Houston, Charlotte and Austin(Austin actually has a well known San Fran like buzz about it nationally...a really good thing for Houston). So, I wanted to start a thread on here about the same issue that everyone is angry about:

A)Why Downtown Houston continues to struggle, but will soon change

B)Why Houston (being one of the largest cities) does not have the "IT" Factor (Hate to put words in your mouth JAX)

Here's my explanation:

A)Why Downtown Houston continues to struggle, but will soon change

-Suburban sprawl

*The Galleria Area= (#1 "IT" area) Think about the Chrome Light Fixtures, scenery and # of tourists. There are more tourists in this area than Downtown any day of the week and one time when someone from Chicago visited they asked when approaching "Is this downtown". Think about all of the condos and shopping in that area and also how well landscaped it is.

*The Medical Center/Museum District= (#2 "IT" area)....Really nice, but yet unaccessible by a train or a short cab ride from our #1 "IT" area. Let's not

forget that it isn't walking distance from downtown.

* WEST HOUSTON ...(ALL of it, including Washington Ave, the Heights, Montrose,West U and River Oaks all the way to the energy corridor) This maybe one of the biggest culprits of them all behind the Galleria, which is also West! Here's the list and maybe if downtown was located in Highland village, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Here's the list of all the potential $$ that could've gone into downtown or that one it area:

- 2727 Kirby, West Ave, Regent Square, everything on wash ave, the other river oaks mixed use project, the other galleria project that houses Hermes, highland village, uptown park, memorial city.....I don't have time to continue and attempt to name out everything..

[wernicke]

Active debate today. Here are some shots from Sunday.

[sowanome]

JAX I Agree with everything that you are saying!!! Great job, because a few weeks ago, while I was walking around Chicago freezing (Late April and a high of 45 degrees) and I just thought about how angry I was, but I crossed the river at Michigan Ave and was in awe of the architectual beauty and the sight of hundreds of tourists (Tourists kill this one specific area of Chicago 85% of the time. Just one area.)walking around freezing. The cold weather gets ridiculous up here at times (I've lived between chicago and wisconsin for a few years..I know cold weather and people talk about weather here, bc it's the biggest negative to the City. "Hey its freezing " a Chicagoans response " But the summers are nice", yet its June 1st and the last cold front is swinging thru with a high of 63 and low of 50??) doesn't this sound like "hey, its humid" .."but the real estate is cheap and the winters are nice"

Pick your poison, but remember it gets colder in most places (-5 w.chill -20) than it gets hotter in houston (95 index 108, but it' also 90 everywhere else).

So in response to people not liking houston...tell me a city that they love and I can find people that are miserable there..The winters bring about depression, not the summer. People just dont wake up angry in the summer like they do in the winter.

Every city has a glaring negative and if you live somewhere long enough, you will find many of them.However, when I crossed the river it clicked to me that Houston does not have that one glaring positive(that the Superstar Cities (NY,San Fran, Boston and LA) have. However, I wanted to point out that there is a second wave of cities that are up and coming(Houston, Charlotte and Austin(Austin actually has a well known San Fran like buzz about it nationally...a really good thing for Houston)

So, I wanted to start a thread on here about the same issue that everyone is angry about:

A)Why Downtown Houston continues to struggle, but will soon change

B)Why Houston (being one of the largest cities) does not have the "IT" Factor (Hate to put words in your mouth JAX)

Here's my explanation:

A)Why Downtown Houston continues to struggle, but will soon change

-Suburban sprawl

*The Galleria Area= (#1 "IT" area) Think about the Chrome Light Fixtures, scenery and # of tourists. There are more tourists in this area than in Downtown any day of the week and one time when someone from Chicago visited they asked when approaching "Is this downtown". Think about all of the condos and shopping in that area and also how well landscaped it is.

*The Medical Center/Museum District= (#2 "IT" area)....Really nice, but yet unaccessible by a train or a short cab ride from our #1 "IT" area. Let's not forget that it isn't walking distance from downtown.

* WEST HOUSTON ...(ALL of it, including Washington Ave, the Heights, Montrose,West U and River Oaks all the way to the energy corridor) This maybe one of the biggest culprits of them all behind the Galleria, which is also West! Here's the list and maybe if downtown was located in Highland village, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Here's the list of all the potential $$ that could've gone into downtown or that one it area:

- 2727 Kirby, West Ave, Regent Square, everything on wash ave(not to mention, but wash ave may potentially be the next urban street, but closer in and more upscale than lower westheimer), the other river oaks mixed use project, the other galleria project that houses Hermes, highland village, uptown park, memorial city.....I don't have time to continue and attempt to name out everything, so just check out "GOING UP"

- Let's envision Memorial and Allen Parkway, leaving out of downtown, 10 years from now...This maybe the Skyline that connects downtown to uptown??? That's an actual positive, but we will get to that later...

- So what does downtown get? A park and H.Pavillions....

B)Why Houston (being one of the largest cities) does not have the "IT" Factor (Hate to put words in your mouth JAX)

* B/C of the 90's

* B/C of suburban sprawl

* B/C of TMC, Galleria and west Houston

* B/C it will have the "IT" affect when in less than 10 years from now (purely economic)

PART II. (Education and the positives of Houston being at the bottom for so long, that it will thrive in the future)

* economics and real estate (and the thing that connects the two)== MONEY

1) The average american is currently being priced out of the superstar cities...where do they migrate? Usually somewhere more affordable

2) The average american college grad making over 45k/yr is priced out of the s.star city...where do they migrate? Usually somewhere more affordable and that provides career opportunities

3) The young married couple with a combined income of greater than 120K...that's priced out of the nicer areas of the s.star ? they go to the gentrified areas and push up the price of land in the s.star cities to astronmical rates....

4) Oh by the way, gas prices are seeming high for america, but not as high across the board internationally...We still have a ways to go! http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

5) Oh by the way, how why does houston have the 2nd highest number of fortune 500 co's now? Cost of doing business is cheaper in Texas and...there's no state income tax

6) food for thought..the average american family is worse off now than in the 70's..the middle class is waving "bye, bye"

* What this means for houston

1) People and businesses are relocating here bc it's a better financial environment...period

2) Perfect example...You'd be shock to know that personal fitness trainers make more money in Houston than in southern Cal..Why so? the company has to pay for its real estate, the customer has to pay for their real estate, and the trainer is caught in the middle of it. In houston, people tend to have more discretionary income...you think the average person has discretionary income to just throw around in NY or SF...(assuming they dont work in finance, etc)

3) Houston has been the place that's saved up its capital and resources while providing for the average person...10 years from now, the western inner loop of houston and the galleria area will have over inflated real estate prices and you will all be happy for the density that's been created. The reason I choose the western inner loop is b/c of this:

*Manhattan

*San Fran proper (7x7 sq miles)

*Boston

*Downtown Chicago

*west LA (b.hills, santa monica,etc...our closest city in resemblence)

4) Increased Gas prices are actually assisting houston in 2 ways and I hope they keep going up.... http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

* The higher the gas, the less people want to drive, the more they gravitate to the city circle..this pushes up the demand of areas that surround places of business (downtown, galleria and energy corridor)

* Historically speaking, suburban sprawl is a new phenom that wont last much longer and it's is dying out....the lifestyle is just unsubstainable to human nature.

* The more money the oil co's make, the more it drives capital back into houston

* People will actually want to work, live and play in the same area and not be dependent on cars....This is exactly why so much money is being put into Houston right now...Sprawl killed houston along with the american dream of moving out to the burbs...Just imagine life in California, and believe me, everything you here about a cost of living adjustment for relocating is false. If you make 50k in houston, you will make 55k in chicago and maybe 58k in New York...Businesses are into making and keeping money, not handing it out to employees who want to relocate!

Sorry, but in closing the people on this board are building houston one $ at a time...just invest in houston and don't expect things to change overnight. It's impossible that sprawl will continue to kill this city, just think about how wash ave will one day be walked into downtown by pedestrians that live in 6th ward, midtown or east end. We just have to hope that our neighbors accept mixed use, bc that will provide our "IT" Factor..

http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

Edited May 6, 2008 by sowanome

[Trae]

Those two silver boxes would be perfect for some screens:

[tierwestah]

Those two silver boxes would be perfect for some screens:

It almost seems like that's exactly what they had in mind on the design phase. But we'll see. I hope to God they approve them.

[lockmat]

There is no underground parking, right? Many of the renderings and models that only show the office tower and not the residential portion still show some driveways coming up from underground on the north side of two of the lots. We never saw any digging at the site, right?

If they're not there, I'm glad b/c it would have really bad for sidewalk traffic.

Edited May 6, 2008 by lockmat

[KinkaidAlum]

IMHO, Houston won't ever become a fashionable city. It doesn't matter what we do because people who have never been here will think oil (evil), Enron (crooks), humidity (bad hair days), sprawl (hard to get around), Bush (with his Pappa around, people still equate Houston with GWB), mothers who drown their multiple kids in bathtubs, etc...

What Houston needs to do is become a BETTER PLACE FOR HER RESIDENTS.

The downtown park is a nice start. If you go back and re-read that thread, it is full of doubting Thomases. Many of those D.T.s are now singing Discovery Green's praises. Nice public spaces that bring people together with plenty of activities have the potential to become INCREDIBLE spaces over time.

My next desire is for people to come together to help fund the Buffalo Bayou Master Plan. That truly has the potential to change Houston. If visitors like it, that's just an added bonus.

That said, adding video billboards to Main Street downtown really doesn't do anything for our image or for making downtown a place people will want to live. Would you really want to buy a unit that has light pollution every night until midnight? I wouldn't. Noise and light pollution are major inhibitors to downtown's residential growth which is why I am happy to see the nightclubs failing.

People will want to live downtown IF there are quality restaurants around, access to grocery stores, pocket parks, public places to walk dogs, coffee shops that are open past business hours, etc... These are the things downtown needs more of; not tv screens.

[lockmat]

My next desire is for people to come together to help fund the Buffalo Bayou Master Plan. That truly has the potential to change Houston. If visitors like it, that's just an added bonus.

my dream

[ricco67]

IMHO, Houston won't ever become a fashionable city. It doesn't matter what we do because people who have never been here will think oil (evil), Enron (crooks), humidity (bad hair days), sprawl (hard to get around), Bush (with his Pappa around, people still equate Houston with GWB), mothers who drown their multiple kids in bathtubs, etc...

What Houston needs to do is become a BETTER PLACE FOR HER RESIDENTS.

The downtown park is a nice start. If you go back and re-read that thread, it is full of doubting Thomases. Many of those D.T.s are now singing Discovery Green's praises. Nice public spaces that bring people together with plenty of activities have the potential to become INCREDIBLE spaces over time.

My next desire is for people to come together to help fund the Buffalo Bayou Master Plan. That truly has the potential to change Houston. If visitors like it, that's just an added bonus.

That said, adding video billboards to Main Street downtown really doesn't do anything for our image or for making downtown a place people will want to live. Would you really want to buy a unit that has light pollution every night until midnight? I wouldn't. Noise and light pollution are major inhibitors to downtown's residential growth which is why I am happy to see the nightclubs failing.

People will want to live downtown IF there are quality restaurants around, access to grocery stores, pocket parks, public places to walk dogs, coffee shops that are open past business hours, etc... These are the things downtown needs more of; not tv screens.

See, I don't WANT Houston to be a major Tourist destination. I want Houston for people to be a fun place for people that HAPPEN to be in Houston for business, family, and people that come to visit for business/conventions.

I want Houston to be able to have more amenities for the people that live here that would enjoy as well as out of towners, but I don't want it "touristy" or else we would wind up like Austin or San Antonio ("Saint Antonio" for those that don't speak spanish).

[sowanome]

IMHO, Houston won't ever become a fashionable city. It doesn't matter what we do because people who have never been here will think oil (evil), Enron (crooks), humidity (bad hair days), sprawl (hard to get around), Bush (with his Pappa around, people still equate Houston with GWB), mothers who drown their multiple kids in bathtubs, etc...

I agree w/Kinkaid about people's perception about Houston....The one thing that I can say, is that everytime someone visits from out of town, they are surprised...usually in a good way. I guess everyone expects to see horses and tumble weeds...People are also envious of our weather, believe it or not. Having been transplanted into the Midwest for a number of years, I can't count how many times people have asked me..Why are you here, why did you leave the weather? However, we are still known as Bush Country... I cant wait until November.

Keep Raising Gas Prices....(Kill Suburban Sprawl)

Edited May 6, 2008 by dbigtex56

[rsb320]

People have been trying to improve the image of Houston for as long as I can remember and I moved here in 1979. We had the "Houston Proud" campagn and now the "My Houston" campaign. IMO, both lame. They've been trying to get those unsightly billboards removed since the mid 80's. You have to admit, driving in from IAH, that 45 is unsightly and that's the first impression. Actually, it's the second, the first is from the air. I've been on a plane and people from the northern states are so amazed at how green it is. Another favorable impression for visitors is how friendly people are for such a large city.

Anyway, efforts have been steadily made since the bust of the 80's and I think we're going in the right direction, but it'll just take some time.

Now, back to HP - screens or no screens? I think they would look really cool on those silver boxes that someone pointed out. I think they would give an element of 'life' even though it's not like your going to sit there and watch it, unless there's a car chase or breaking world news, etc.

[H-Town Man]

Now wait a second, Houston isn't ugly, it's VIBRANT! All of that vibrancy comes from the free market. The free market is what is going to make Houston AMERICA'S NEXT GREAT CITY OF OPPORTUNITY. If you take any of those freedoms away, then Houston won't be AMERICA'S NEXT GREAT CITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

Why do you want to be cool, like Portland? Why are you so obsessed with hip cities like Portland? I know a guy who lives in Portland who hates it there because he can't build an eight car garage with a basketball court on his property. Now he's moving to Houston!

There's no point in worrying about domestic migration; we'll never be as attractive as Dallas or Atlanta. We have humidity and mosquitoes and they don't, so there's no point in trying to make ourselves more attractive to compete for domestic migrants. We're stigmatized because of humidity and mosquitoes.

So my point is, stop trying to be hip. Stop trying to bring anything to the city that could be classified as hip. What we want are middle class families. Middle class families are what make a city great. They are making Houston AMERICA'S NEXT GREAT CITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

[/local urbanism critics]

[memebag]

...[t]hey've been trying to get those unsightly billboards removed since the mid 80's. You have to admit, driving in from IAH, that 45 is unsightly and that's the first impression...

...I think [screens] would look really cool on those silver boxes that someone pointed out...

Here it is again. You don't like billboards on the freeway, but you would like video billboards on HP? How come?

[rsb320]

Here it is again. You don't like billboards on the freeway, but you would like video billboards on HP? How come?

There TVs, Man. Actually, I wouldn't be against a few electronic billboards around town, but the freeways being lined with them is a bit much.

Edited May 6, 2008 by rsb320

[memebag]

There TVs, Man. Actually, I wouldn't be against a few electronic billboards around town, but the freeways being lined with them is a bit much.

I'm just trying to get my head around this. Giant animated ads are good, giant static ads are bad. Do I have it right?

[20thStDad]

Maybe it's a pretty vs ugly thing. Nice, slick tv screens are pretty, billboards ugly. I like to look at a nice bungalow, but not if the windows are busted out and there are weeds 5 ft tall in the yard.

[rsb320]

Maybe it's a pretty vs ugly thing. Nice, slick tv screens are pretty, billboards ugly. I like to look at a nice bungalow, but not if the windows are busted out and there are weeds 5 ft tall in the yard.

Exactly. Many billboards have ads that are peeling off, made from telephone poles that are leaning. They just look ratty. A big screen can simply be turned off.

[memebag]

Maybe it's a pretty vs ugly thing. Nice, slick tv screens are pretty, billboards ugly. I like to look at a nice bungalow, but not if the windows are busted out and there are weeds 5 ft tall in the yard.

Exactly. Many billboards have ads that are peeling off, made from telephone poles that are leaning. They just look ratty. A big screen can simply be turned off.

So billboards would be OK if they were prettier? And the video screens wouldn't be OK if they were ugly? What if the video screens show ugly ads? Or is any video ad prettier than any static ad?

[crunchtastic]

I'm just trying to get my head around this. Giant animated ads are good, giant static ads are bad. Do I have it right?

I'm giving up trying to understand, meme. As long as the content delivery device is shiny, people will swallow any type of advertising, apparently. And then ask for more! Bigger ads, surrounded by even more lights. Boggles my mind.

[RedScare]

Boy, if the "TV screens will make Houston exciting" argument wasn't silly enough, the TV vs. billboard argument should do it.

This seems like a good time to reintroduce the Victory Park video boards.

Video Boards with no one watching them.

These things were debated rather heavily in a now deceased thread. Of course, in that thread, anyone who badmouthed the video boards was accused of being anti-Dallas. Here, anyone badmouthing the video baords is anti-Houston, anti-tourism, anti-Times Square, and anti-fun and excitement. Now, I know a little bit about video boards. I've got one in my living room. I've been watching it for 48 years. I am not against the damn things per se, but some of the claims in this thread that a few TV screens on the side of a building increasing tourism are over the top! I mean really, how many of you have travelled to Dallas to look at Victory's moving screens lately?

But, hey, if a few tv screens on the side of HP will get all of you guys off of your couches to watch tv downtown, then I'm all for it!

[crunchtastic]

A big screen can simply be turned off.

And there goes your ad revenue that pays for all that vibrancy downtown.

[memebag]

I'm not against giant TVs downtown; I'm just trying to figure out how to get billboards back on the freeways.

Now wait a second, Houston isn't ugly, it's VIBRANT!

You have to put a nickel in the Vibrant Jar.

[musicman]

yeah let's make the problem worse.

[Jax]

I'm just trying to get my head around this. Giant animated ads are good, giant static ads are bad. Do I have it right?

I can't quite explain it, but somehow all of the flashy adds in Times Square look nicer than the ratty billboards along Houston's highways. Wouldn't you agree?

(sorry, this was the only highway 45 billboard that I could find, they aren't pretty enough to take pictures of I guess.

[memebag]

I can't quite explain it, but somehow all of the flashy adds in Times Square look nicer than the ratty billboards along Houston's highways. Wouldn't you agree?

I thought I made that clear. I like billboards (both ratty and snazzy) along the freeways.

Also, I miss the old Times Square from the 70s. The new one is too clean for me.

[rsb320]

All I was saying is that removal of many billboards from our freeways would be an aesthetical improvement for everyone, including tourist.

If an owner of a building wants to put up some screens on their property, I don't have a problem with it. Just like I don't have a problem with Fiest putting 'Vegas style' lights on their signs.