GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[cspwal]

idk it surprises me - government entities working together and doing something that makes sense?

[bobruss]

I stand by what I said about the rails influence on construction in downtown, and new development all along the rail line. 

Midtown had no incentives to build apartments yet thousands of new units are either built or coming on line very soon, and all built along the rail.

There is a ton of property available in Midtown that is cheaper and closer to town yet the new developments are occurring close to the rail stations. 

There have been discussions and quotes by real estate developers who have said that they purposely looked for sights that offered 

connections to our rail lines and mass transit. 

Sure the developers built large garages for their executives, but as you should be aware that if you drive by these structures at 5:00 any work day

you will see long lines of people cued up to take their bus.

Any time you introduce a new system into a city its going to take time for the masses to finally understand and appreciate the convenience and savings from using it. As the cost of driving and especially parking in these towers becomes so expensive that it makes more sense to take the rail 

or ride a bus that too will happen. 

I believe that a well planned system will eventually be completed in Houston and once we figure out a way to include commuter rail from the suburbs that connects with our light rail system you will see the next major development turning point. Just like the freeways were the tipping point for development so will the rail lines.

It takes time for a new culture to take affect and I don't expect this to happen overnight but it needs to happen because unlike Chicago Houston is growing and more of that growth is beginning to happen inside the loop, and our freeways can't handle the growth.

[BeerNut]

"I think that as we get more rail transportation, we will alleviate the traffic. And we need more rail in Houston, as our Main Street line has shown between the Medical Center and downtown and all the apartments that have been built there."  --Gerald Hines

 

[102IAHexpress]

393. The number of business affected and awarded compensation by Metro due to the light rail between 2010-2014.

 

http://ridemetro.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=5&clip_id=1262&meta_id=24560

 

The light rail has had an impact on business development indeed!

[Houston19514]

nm

Edited May 18, 2017 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

11 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

393. The number of business affected and awarded compensation by Metro due to the light rail between 2010-2014.

 

http://ridemetro.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=5&clip_id=1262&meta_id=24560

 

The light rail has had an impact on business development indeed!

And he swings and misses again.

 

I'm pretty sure you know that no one has suggested that no business suffered any adverse consequences due to the construction of the light rail infrastructure.  Of course some did.

 

And as you've so kindly (and cluelessly) shown us, Metro provided assistance to ameliorate those consequences.  Kinda' steps on your attempted point, doesn't it?  What was your point again?

[samagon]

17 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

393. The number of business affected and awarded compensation by Metro due to the light rail between 2010-2014.

 

http://ridemetro.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=5&clip_id=1262&meta_id=24560

 

The light rail has had an impact on business development indeed!

 

Yup. Metro compensates businesses when they are building. Bloody nice of them I'd say. That was the payout for all affected construction of 3 new lines (red north, green and purple).

 

How much is being paid to all the businesses over the past 7 years of construction of 290/i10/610?

 

How many businesses have gone out of business as a result of the expansion that has spanned the better part of a decade?

 

Massive works like these take their toll during construction. Good point. The benefit that these lines are proving for mobility are far greater than the short term losses during construction.

Edited May 18, 2017 by samagon

[102IAHexpress]

1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

And he swings and misses again.

 

I'm pretty sure you know that no one has suggested that no business suffered any adverse consequences due to the construction of the light rail infrastructure.  Of course some did.

 

And as you've so kindly (and cluelessly) shown us, Metro provided assistance to ameliorate those consequences.  Kinda' steps on your attempted point, doesn't it?  What was your point again?

 

For purposes of this discussion it seems that your analysis of the light rail's costs/benefits only begins after the ribbon cutting and after passengers start boarding?  Using that logic the light rail can only have a positive affect on development! If a business fails during construction It's not fair to count it. And if it fails after construction its because of the business itself not the light rail!

 

 

 

 

 

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

For purposes of this discussion it seems that your analysis of the light rail's costs/benefits only begins after the ribbon cutting and after passengers start boarding?  Using that logic the light rail can only have a positive affect on development! If a business fails during construction It's not fair to count it. And if it fails after construction its because of the business itself not the light rail!

 

 

 

 

 

  

No.  And I've said nothing from which such notions could have been inferred.

[102IAHexpress]

I have posted facts. You may not like the facts because it does not further your position but that fact remains that the light rail cost businesses at least $3,796,377 during a four year period. To say nothing of the lost tax revenue by the city and county.

 

If you would like to post facts that shows that the light rail has been beneficial to businesses then please go ahead. 

 

 

[UtterlyUrban]

Out of curiousity, during the construction of the rail lines, how many businesses didn't open along the line?

[j_cuevas713]

2 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

I have posted facts. You may not like the facts because it does not further your position but that fact remains that the light rail cost businesses at least $3,796,377 during a four year period. To say nothing of the lost tax revenue by the city and county.

 

If you would like to post facts that shows that the light rail has been beneficial to businesses then please go ahead. 

 

 

You're STILL going on about this while the rail carries tons of passengers daily. So..........?

[KinkaidAlum]

I'm a business owner. One of our locations saw sales drop 43% year-over-year when one of the streets we are located on went under construction. Nobody paid us for that inconvenience.  Luckily, we were big enough to handle the hit. Some smaller places around us weren't so lucky. 

 

As for businesses that benefitted from the light rail; Brookfield Property, Hines, Urban Living, Perry Homes, Camden, Post, Farb, Womack, Mirador, Caydon, Morgan Group, Surge Homes, Ziegler Cooper, Hermes Architects, Parsons, Granite Construction, etc...

[j_cuevas713]

2 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

I'm a business owner. One of our locations saw sales drop 43% year-over-year when one of the streets we are located on went under construction. Nobody paid us for that inconvenience.  Luckily, we were big enough to handle the hit. Some smaller places around us weren't so lucky. 

 

As for businesses that benefitted from the light rail; Brookfield Property, Hines, Urban Living, Perry Homes, Camden, Post, Farb, Womack, Mirador, Caydon, Morgan Group, Surge Homes, Ziegler Cooper, Hermes Architects, Parsons, Granite Construction, etc...

I'm sorry for your losses but has the rail help your business at all or no? My thing is, what is the city to do? How are we expected to progress considering losses are a part of that process? 

[bobruss]

A lot of this is the same argument that wAs used all by the time by the Afton Oaks NIMBYS.

It did hurt businesses, and any time you create a new system you will displace or disrupt businesses. In a case like this where a new mass transit system is being installed the long term benefits will far outweigh the small number of businesses that are affected.

Unfortunately sometimes people get hurt for change, and this would be a good change.

Many of the businesses that were there during the construction are still there now.

It's usually businesses that are weak to begin with or just barely hanging on. Its mom and pops that have not kept up and weren't doing much the last ten years. The neighborhood had changed over the years. It became a ghost town along main way before the rail came along.

Perfect example all the squabbling about the University line by the businesses who said they would lose their business.

Well half of those businesses are now gone because they weren't successful anymore or they sold their property to apartment or storage building developers, and new strip centers.  

[UtterlyUrban]

33 minutes ago, bobruss said:

A lot of this is the same argument that wAs used all by the time by the Afton Oaks NIMBYS.

It did hurt businesses, and any time you create a new system you will displace or disrupt businesses. In a case like this where a new mass transit system is being installed the long term benefits will far outweigh the small number of businesses that are affected.

Unfortunately sometimes people get hurt for change, and this would be a good change.

Many of the businesses that were there during the construction are still there now.

It's usually businesses that are weak to begin with or just barely hanging on. Its mom and pops that have not kept up and weren't doing much the last ten years. The neighborhood had changed over the years. It became a ghost town along main way before the rail came along.

Perfect example all the squabbling about the University line by the businesses who said they would lose their business.

Well half of those businesses are now gone because they weren't successful anymore or they sold their property to apartment or storage building developers, and new strip centers.  

I wish to understand.  Your point is that as a result of rail construction, small businesses will fail and huge businesses will win?

 

 

[KinkaidAlum]

My business I was speaking of was hurt due to ROAD construction.

 

That's my point. Owning a business is risky. All sorts of things can hurt you. Light rail construction? Sure. Road Construction? I know first hand. Infrastructure upgrades? Yep. Flooding? Of course. Fire? Uh-huh. A bad product? Most certainly. 

 

There are zero guarantees. Businesses on the light rail line were LUCKY to get paid for their inconvenience. We weren't paid for ours but then again, we didn't have a political movement turning "road construction" into public enemy #1.

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

I have posted facts. You may not like the facts because it does not further your position but that fact remains that the light rail cost businesses at least $3,796,377 during a four year period. To say nothing of the lost tax revenue by the city and county.

 

If you would like to post facts that shows that the light rail has been beneficial to businesses then please go ahead. 

 

 

 

And according to the facts you posted, those businesses were reimbursed by Metro for every penny of those losses.  Pay attention.   What was your point again?

[102IAHexpress]

31 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

There are zero guarantees. Businesses on the light rail line were LUCKY to get paid for their inconvenience. We weren't paid for ours but then again, we didn't have a political movement turning "road construction" into public enemy #1.

 

What is your evidence to state they were LUCKY? Seems like governments often compensate businesses along light rail lines.

 

Israel:

http://www.jpost.com/Business-and-Innovation/Deri-budgets-NIS-4-million-for-Tel-Aviv-businesses-affected-by-light-rail-construction-413753

Seattle:

http://www.seattle.gov/economicdevelopment/business-owners/financial-support/23rd-avenue-businesses

Los Angeles:

https://www.metro.net/news/simple_pr/metros-pilot-business-interruption-fund-reaches-1-/

 

 

 

[102IAHexpress]

4 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

And according to the facts you posted, those businesses were reimbursed by Metro for every penny of those losses.  Pay attention.   What was your point again?

 

I've represented hundreds of client's in business interruption loss claims. I've never had one get reimbursed every penny. We usually had to fight tooth and nail to get paid part of the losses. I doubt the light rail affected businesses fared any better with Metro. And if you pay attention you will see that some businesses weren't paid anything.

[KinkaidAlum]

 

My evidence that they were lucky is that they WERE PAID for a public transportation project (rail transit) and I was NOT PAID for a public transportation project (road transit). 

 

[102IAHexpress]

I'm not sure I would I call a road a public transportation project, I would just call it a road. But I feel your pain about road construction and business losses. My brother has sold cars for 15 years and he has been at many dealerships affected by road construction. However, and I'm just speculating here, the reason why businesses are not typically compensated for road projects is because the government has a right and obligation to build and maintain roads. See Article 1 section 8 of the constitution. You need roads to deliver mail, provide for the common defense, etc.

[samagon]

9 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

I'm not sure I would I call a road a public transportation project, I would just call it a road.

 

But what makes a road different?

 

They are both projects funded by everyone to increase mobility along a specific corridor and then that corridor isn't used by everyone.

 

Look, roads and mass transit are both forms of public transportation. One is a bus/train/gondola/whatever that people sit in at the same time. One is a road/street/avenue that people drive on at the same time.

 

I'd say the biggest difference between roads and mass transit is that drivers are under the very false assumption that the money they pay in tax for gasoline fully funds roads, and so they have a right to it.

 

Here's a fun article to read through!

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/driving-true-costs/412237/

Edited May 19, 2017 by samagon

[bobruss]

11 hours ago, UtterlyUrban said:

I wish to understand.  Your point is that as a result of rail construction, small businesses will fail and huge businesses will win?

 

 

No, weak businesses that were failing or losing business due to either poor management or maybe a business that was out of sync with the 21st century business models were hurt. Bars that weren't on stable footing to begin with, little mom and pop stores who had already lost much of their business due to the ghost town that midtown had become in the late 20th century, and large businesses whose trade had moved out to the suburbs.

I feel sorry for those that were forced to close or move, but I think sometimes those kinds of things are going to happen when you go about creating from scratch, a totally new means of getting around the city. How can anyone argue who defends the expansion of freeways. Its the same situation.  How many businesses have been displaced or closed due to the expansion of I-10 and now 290.

My point being that I feel their pain, but I think that sometimes we do things for the common good for the overall community that might affect a small minority who do lose.  Thats unfortunately the result of progress. At least Metro made the effort to alleviate some of the pain in these last two lines by better construction planning, more community communications, and payments to small businesses for compensation. 

Most of the arguments about Houston rail are based on the construction of the Red Line. That was Metro's first experience with this scale of project.

I think they were a little too optimistic in their time line. They tried to build it all at once, which kept the entire line under construction for the length

of the project, and they were forced into a deadline for the super bowl.

I'm sorry that anyone had to suffer but sometimes for the greater good these things happen.

[102IAHexpress]

3 hours ago, bobruss said:

...

I feel sorry for those that were forced to close or move, but I think sometimes those kinds of things are going to happen when you go about creating from scratch, a totally new means of getting around the city. How can anyone argue who defends the expansion of freeways. Its the same situation.  How many businesses have been displaced or closed due to the expansion of I-10 and now 290.

My point being that I feel their pain, but I think that sometimes we do things for the common good for the overall community that might affect a small minority who do lose.  Thats unfortunately the result of progress. ...

 

I'm not sure it's progress actually. Businesses are not being affected by some awesome magnetic levitation train or a hyperloop system. Instead they are being affected not by progress but by actually regressing to a 19th century technology. That's the insult to injury. Rail existed on main street more than a hundred years ago. In time we progressed from rail on main street to buses. Now we're going back to light rail. I don't view that as progress, nor "progress" that local businesses should pay dearly for.

[ADCS]

43 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I'm not sure it's progress actually. Businesses are not being affected by some awesome magnetic levitation train or a hyperloop system. Instead they are being affected not by progress but by actually regressing to a 19th century technology. That's the insult to injury. Rail existed on main street more than a hundred years ago. In time we progressed from rail on main street to buses. Now we're going back to light rail. I don't view that as progress, nor "progress" that local businesses should pay dearly for.

 

Automobiles and buses are also 19th Century technology. Your point is meaningless.

[j_cuevas713]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I'm not sure it's progress actually. Businesses are not being affected by some awesome magnetic levitation train or a hyperloop system. Instead they are being affected not by progress but by actually regressing to a 19th century technology. That's the insult to injury. Rail existed on main street more than a hundred years ago. In time we progressed from rail on main street to buses. Now we're going back to light rail. I don't view that as progress, nor "progress" that local businesses should pay dearly for.

Hold on a sec! So you view rail as a lack of progress and view buses as progressive. So why weren't "progressive" buses creating more foot traffic and helping these businesses succeed? Why aren't those same roads that thousands of cars travel on daily helping serve these businesses that somehow took the total loss due to light rail? To me it sounds like those businesses we losing regardless, whether light rail was there or not. 

[102IAHexpress]

41 minutes ago, ADCS said:

 

Automobiles and buses are also 19th Century technology. Your point is meaningless.

 

Trains and auto's are both technically old. However trains are older. That's just a fact.  Further, affordable mass produced automobiles required the technology of assembly lines which did not come into play until the early 20th century. What is your point?

 

10 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Hold on a sec! So you view rail as a lack of progress and view buses as progressive. So why weren't "progressive" buses creating more foot traffic and helping these businesses succeed? Why aren't those same roads that thousands of cars travel on daily helping serve these businesses that somehow took the total loss due to light rail? To me it sounds like those businesses we losing regardless, whether light rail was there or not. 

 

I don't follow your argument. My position has not changed. Given the choice between public transportation and personal automobiles in Houston, Houstonian's will chose personal automobiles. Disruptions of people's ability to drive to businesses will impede those businesses ability to succeed. Light rail construction disruption is especially bad for businesses because it impedes motor traffic and sometimes foot traffic too and for what? Public transportation? Public transportation already existed.  You could tear up main street with a MagLev train and people would still prefer their automobiles. Businesses would still be affected by MagLev construction but at least there, you could legitimately make the argument that, that it was technological "progress".

 

 

 

[j_cuevas713]

17 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Trains and auto's are both technically old. However trains are older. That's just a fact.  Further, affordable mass produced automobiles required the technology of assembly lines which did not come into play until the early 20th century. What is your point?

 

 

I don't follow your argument. My position has not changed. Given the choice between public transportation and personal automobiles in Houston, Houstonian's will chose personal automobiles. Disruptions of people's ability to drive to businesses will impede those businesses ability to succeed. Light rail construction disruption is especially bad for businesses because it impedes motor traffic and sometimes foot traffic too and for what? Public transportation? Public transportation already existed.  You could tear up main street with a MagLev train and people would still prefer their automobiles. Businesses would still be affected by MagLev construction but at least there, you could legitimately make the argument that, that it was technological "progress".

 

 

 

That's your argument? Yeah because the culture has been set to rely on the automobile. How do you expect to change the culture of a city that has relied on the car for everything? Businesses are going to be disrupted regardless, but building a transportation system outweighs any short term affect it has on those businesses. You can argue all you want that the train itself didn't spur development but it's clear to see that it did. How much immediate development is an argument we could have forever. The truth is that many developers specifically stated that they built next to the train as an incentive to those wanting an urban lifestyle. It's CLEARLY a benefit to live adjacent to great public transportation. I don't need to go in to detail when you have proof in cities like Chicago and NY. And if you want to argue that in 13 years very little development has happened, then that's totally fine. It's going to take more than 13 years to fully redevelop most of the areas affected because of negligence from the city. The train isn't going to fix it all but it sure as hell is a great starting point. You can argue for people and their cars all day but I'm in an overly packed train in the morning and evening. People want options, plain and simple.  

Edited May 19, 2017 by j_cuevas713

[bobruss]

The last building Hines and Pickard Chilton worked on together downtown was BG Group Place, which opened in 2011, just two blocks away. Hines bought the two properties in the same transaction, largely because they were both on the Main Street light rail line.

This was  in the Chronicle after the grand opening of the new 609 Main by Hines