ricco67 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 If i may join in for a second.As a person who is currently trying to come to find 'religion' again (Catholic), i had to have this converaation quite a bit.Anyway,The whole thing seems to somehow always come back to "evolution" and some call him the maker (if you are a droid on star wars), since DNA was discovered several decades ago, would it not be considered a SINE of God?You may now groan and return to your original arguements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Julio Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 (edited) Lockmat, you seem to make the argument thatA) The universe is perfect; if measurements were only fractionally different, life couldn't exist -- ergo, God. (The "fine tuning" argument.)andB ) The Bible is the inerrant word of the same supreme being that created the universe, i.e. God. This is a completely contradictory position. If the universe is fine tuned, then Moses could not have parted the sea, to name but one of many, many examples. The whole strength of the "fine tuning" argument rests on the premise that the natural order of the universe, having been created and fine tuned by God, is utterly inalterable in its order. If A is true, then B is false. If B is true, then A is false. Edited April 4, 2009 by Don Julio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frheard Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 See! God answers prayers!But He ain't too nice about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmat Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Lockmat, you seem to make the argument thatA) The universe is perfect; if measurements were only fractionally different, life couldn't exist -- ergo, God. (The "fine tuning" argument.)andB ) The Bible is the inerrant word of the same supreme being that created the universe, i.e. God. This is a completely contradictory position. If the universe is fine tuned, then Moses could not have parted the sea, to name but one of many, many examples. The whole strength of the "fine tuning" argument rests on the premise that the natural order of the universe, having been created and fine tuned by God, is utterly inalterable in its order. If A is true, then B is false. If B is true, then A is false.Can you please explain why they are contradictory? Why Moses/God could not have done that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Julio Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Can you please explain why they are contradictory? Why Moses/God could not have done that?The universe is no longer "fine tuned" if the natural order can be interrupted or suspended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 The universe is no longer "fine tuned" if the natural order can be interrupted or suspended.If a computer programmer writes some base rules as general code (what you're calling the natural order), anticipates bugs, and so provides for specific exceptions, all in one sitting...then are the workarounds not part of the natural order?Even if people do have free will, not acting like little pre-programmed machines, that doesn't necessarily create a conflict either if God's understanding of time and space is omnipotent and non-linear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Even if people do have free will, not acting like little pre-programmed machines, that doesn't necessarily create a conflict either if God's understanding of time and space is omnipotent and non-linear.If God can know the future, then people don't have free will in any meaningful sense. A known future means you can make all the choices you want, as long as you always choose the single path that must be chosen. That doesn't satisfy anyone's sense of "free will". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leanne Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I always wonder why some people claim to be so religious and yet when they or someone close to them has a genuine religious experience, they choose to ignore it. I mean, make up your mind already. You either believe or you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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