RedScare Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 They've proved they can raise the money to buy up blocks and and construct new facilities, the Medical Center Area is well within reach.You probably are unaware that in 1995, when The Men's Center purchased that lot in Midtown, land was selling for $2 per square foot. I would say that is a fairly wise use of contributor's money, compared to what land cost in TMC. As for selling out and moving somewhere completely different, sure, Niche's cynical view may be true in part or in full. However, a charity that constantly sells and moves just to make a buck does no favors for its clientele, who must constantly figure out where they moved. Most of these guys don't have an app on their iphone for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I don't see what the past has to do with the argument. If you live in a residential area and you don't want businesses to open that attract bums, you have every right to voice your complaints. We're talking about charities, not businesses. Sure, it's a free country where you can speak your mind. Complain to your heart's content. Doesn't mean it will change the course of history, though. Who cares if vagrants used to roam and currently roam the area? People in any neighborhood should want the best living experience for themselves going forward. Sure, and that street goes both ways. The homeless that live in a neighborhood want the best living experience for themselves going forward. The past is irrelevant, especially when you are talking about homeless people who don't own land or pay taxes. Maybe we can go back to olden days, when only landowners had the right to vote. Someone once said "People in any neighborhood should want the best living experience for themselves going forward." I agree, and I don't restrict it to wealthy or middle class people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) If the reality of these institutions lived up the the promises of their advocates we would not be having these sort of debates. The reality is that they never live up to the "artists renderings" in their operations. It is always the same issue, the surrounding areas are impacted by the overflow, that never gets discussed during ribbon-cutting ceremonies. Covenent House in Montrose has this problem. It's not so much the people in that facility, it's the people visiting. The same is true for Interfaith Ministries.The Medical Center is the ideal area in Houston to provide these services, as those with addictions often have other health issues or comorbid disorders. In the end they can build wherever the heck they want, I just think that Midtown has more than enough within its boundaries.An absolutely absurd suggestion. The hospitals are spending fortunes finding ways to repurpose space in the Med Center. They're tearing down hospitals to build new hospitals. There is no space in the Med Center, and even if there was, IM couldn't afford it.Now: About what you've said about IM's clients having addiction problems. How much do you know about IM's mission, and what is your source for this claim? Which ones are the addicted ones, the little old ladies they deliver meals to? The refugees that are sent over from the State Department? Edited August 13, 2012 by kylejack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 You probably are unaware that in 1995, when The Men's Center purchased that lot in Midtown, land was selling for $2 per square foot. I would say that is a fairly wise use of contributor's money, compared to what land cost in TMC. As for selling out and moving somewhere completely different, sure, Niche's cynical view may be true in part or in full. However, a charity that constantly sells and moves just to make a buck does no favors for its clientele, who must constantly figure out where they moved. Most of these guys don't have an app on their iphone for that.Even if their basis is $2 PSF, they're still carrying an asset worth at least $40 PSF. If they relocated to the Third Ward or Near Northside, they could probably find land for between $4 PSF and $8 PSF and still be accessible enough to their clientele that they wouldn't be doing them any disservice. And with the gains from selling their facilities in Midtown, they could either have better facilities in the Third Ward or provide a greater scope of services.OTOH, if they tried to move into the Texas Medical Center, then they'd probably have a difficult time finding any land priced below $150 PSF. And I doubt that any office buildings would be thrilled with the idea of leasing space to them. So indeed, TGM's idea is totally insane. The cost of such a move would certainly diminish the quality of services that could be provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Now: About what you've said about IM's clients having addiction problems. How much do you know about IM's mission, and what is your source for this claim? Which ones are the addicted ones, the little old ladies they deliver meals to? The refugees that are sent over from the State Department?Men's Center, not IM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 OTOH, if they tried to move into the Texas Medical Center, then they'd probably have a difficult time finding any land priced below $150 PSF. And I doubt that any office buildings would be thrilled with the idea of leasing space to them. There is land in the Medical Center area (yes, area, as it continues to expand) under $150sf.http://www.commgate.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=property.detailFS&ln=173233So why on earth would office buildings be less than thrilled to lease to them? They do such noble work! I mean, every neighborhood should want them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) There is land in the Medical Center area (yes, area, as it continues to expand) under $150sf.http://www.commgate....ailFS&ln=173233So why on earth would office buildings be less than thrilled to lease to them? They do such noble work! I mean, every neighborhood should want them.So, you're suggestion is that the Men's Center should sell their $40 psf property and buy $110 psf property? That makes financial sence to you? Are you going to donate the extra $6.9 million they'll need? And, since you want them out of Midtown because they are undesirable, what argument do you have that justifies them moving into the Hermann Park neighborhood? Edited August 13, 2012 by RedScare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Men's Center, not IM.You were also talking about Covenant and IM.It is always the same issue, the surrounding areas are impacted by the overflow, that never gets discussed during ribbon-cutting ceremonies. Covenent House in Montrose has this problem. It's not so much the people in that facility, it's the people visiting. The same is true for Interfaith Ministries. Edited August 13, 2012 by kylejack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 There is land in the Medical Center area (yes, area, as it continues to expand) under $150sf.http://www.commgate....ailFS&ln=1732335445 Almeda is a four-story office building with a Chase Bank branch and drive-through in an area where triple-digit land sales are totally, completely unprecedented. No matter what the broker says it is, that is not land. Moreover, that property is not and has never been part of the Texas Medical Center; the TMC is expanding southward, not to the north. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 There is land in the Medical Center area (yes, area, as it continues to expand) under $150sf.http://www.commgate....ailFS&ln=173233So why on earth would office buildings be less than thrilled to lease to them? They do such noble work! I mean, every neighborhood should want them.Not even on the right side of Hermann Park, Park Plaza Hospital notwithstanding. In fact, roadwise that location is closer to your precious Midtown than the Med Center (.9m vs 1.4m). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 So, you're suggestion is that the Men's Center should sell their $40 psf property and buy $110 psf property? That makes financial sence to you? Are you going to donate the extra $6.9 million they'll need? And, since you want them out of Midtown because they are undesirable, what argument do you have that justifies them moving into the Hermann Park neighborhood?So not only have you assessed how much it will cost them to buy, you have also established how much they will get for their current property. All of this is a purely hypothetical argument, and sticking with the hypothetical I will state that great deals can be found and made. I personally feel that it is a better choice to locate such a facility within the Medical Center area for a variety of reasons. I'm sure there are some that would be perfectly fine living next to a SRO transitional living/alcohol detox center, in fact 17 years ago I would probably be shouting the loudest for a facility to remain and expand in Midtown. The difference is I've lived in Midtown and I've seen the things that others do not notice on their 5 minute commute through Midtown and I hold a different viewpoint now because of it. I recognize their rights as property owners, but I would rather see them own it elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 You've suggested a property in the Museum Park/Binz neighborhood. Property in the Museum District would be way way more expensive than their property in Midtown. All the hospitals want the TMC property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Not even on the right side of Hermann Park, Park Plaza Hospital notwithstanding. In fact, roadwise that location is closer to your precious Midtown than the Med Center (.9m vs 1.4m).Precious Midtown? Oh, I do believe I have been mortally wounded. I bequeath to kylejack my pro-rated membership balance in the Ayn Rand book club, Wal-Mart VIP Pass, Ford Excursion, and Ann Coulter pillowcase. Yawn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I would rather see them own it elsewhere.This is the essence of this entire debate. You'd rather see them elsewhere, but they have every right to rebuild on the property that they've owned for 17 years.End of topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Precious Midtown? Oh, I do believe I have been mortally wounded. I bequeath to kylejack my pro-rated membership balance in the Ayn Rand book club, Wal-Mart VIP Pass, Ford Excursion, and Ann Coulter pillowcase. Yawn...Yes, seize on one word that you take offense to or whatever and ignore my point that you've suggested they buy a property closer to Midtown than the Med Center, and then described it as a Med Center property, which is apparently important so they can...be near hospitals for addictions? Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I personally feel that it is a better choice to locate such a facility within the Medical Center area for a variety of reasons.For what reasons would that be in the public interest or in the interests of The Men's Center organization?You'll note that I'm specifically excluding your personal interests from the above question. Please do not take offense, this is because they are irrelevant to our discussion; this is in accordance with the notion of Pareto efficiency in a cost-benefit analysis; and Pareto was an ardent socialist, so you can't just label me a conservative and dismiss me. Just answer the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I personally feel that it is a better choice to locate such a facility out near Katy area for a variety of reasons.I fixed it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 For what reasons would that be in the public interest or in the interests of The Men's Center organization?You'll note that I'm specifically excluding your personal interests from the above question. Please do not take offense, this is because they are irrelevant to our discussion; this is in accordance with the notion of Pareto efficiency in a cost-benefit analysis; and Pareto was an ardent socialist, so you can't just label me a conservative and dismiss me. Just answer the question.Several reasons. There are research, treatment, funding, and academic benefits for a location based in the medical center. For starters you have a "captive" workforce actively seeking internship and volunteer opportunities in such an institution. You have a continual need for participants in substance abuse treatment research medical center institutions (Baylor University comes to mind first) You also have a level of expertise in the various communities of practice that is in close proximity which would benefit the Men's Center greatly in their relationships with treatment professionals. Right now their immediate neighbors are convienence stores, bars, high-end apartment complexes, and assorted characters that hang out nearby. Not much synergy there. So out of curiosity, why do you think I would dismiss you as a conservative? That's rather odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Yes, seize on one word that you take offense to or whatever and ignore my point that you've suggested they buy a property closer to Midtown than the Med Center, and then described it as a Med Center property, which is apparently important so they can...be near hospitals for addictions? Whatever.There are plenty of properties available in that area. I spent the least amount of time I could finding it for you. I'm sure you have some time on your hands, how about finding a few more to really prove me wrong? Yawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 There are plenty of properties available in that area. I spent the least amount of time I could finding it for you. I'm sure you have some time on your hands, how about finding a few more to really prove me wrong? Yawn.That property less than a mile from midtown? Watch out, the homeless zombie horde might come for you and yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 That property less than a mile from midtown? Watch out, the homeless zombie horde might come for you and yours!I found a guy who knows all the ins and outs of getting property cheap. Check out one of his deals.http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/28/nation/na-reid28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Several reasons. There are research, treatment, funding, and academic benefits for a location based in the medical center. For starters you have a "captive" workforce actively seeking internship and volunteer opportunities in such an institution. You have a continual need for participants in substance abuse treatment research medical center institutions (Baylor University comes to mind first) You also have a level of expertise in the various communities of practice that is in close proximity which would benefit the Men's Center greatly in their relationships with treatment professionals. Right now their immediate neighbors are convienence stores, bars, high-end apartment complexes, and assorted characters that hang out nearby. Not much synergy there.Let's say that the Men's Center can accomplish their mission on 1.5 acres. The difference between $150 per square foot in the TMC and $6 per square foot in Third Ward is $144 per square foot. That's a $9.4 million difference...up-front.That they could hire a driver to run a 24-hour on-call shuttle service to the TMC in perpetuity...forever...for that amount of money (and its time value) and still have a whole bunch left over with which to pile on the client services. Of course, that assumes that they regularly give a crap about any of the things you mention...which I'll bet they don't particularly in the first place.So out of curiosity, why do you think I would dismiss you as a conservative? That's rather odd.Yes, it certainly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 (edited) Several reasons. There are research, treatment, funding, and academic benefits for a location based in the medical center. For starters you have a "captive" workforce actively seeking internship and volunteer opportunities in such an institution. You have a continual need for participants in substance abuse treatment research medical center institutions (Baylor University comes to mind first) You also have a level of expertise in the various communities of practice that is in close proximity which would benefit the Men's Center greatly in their relationships with treatment professionals. Right now their immediate neighbors are convienence stores, bars, high-end apartment complexes, and assorted characters that hang out nearby. Not much synergy there.I'll pile on to what Niche said.They're treating alcoholics, not curing cancer by splitting the atom in geosynchonous orbit. Maybe I'm missing the "captivity" of medical center employees, but I wouldn't figure that volunteers for such outfits would be drawn from people put out by the inconvenience of going a few miles from their work in the TMC to Midtown. Getting drunks with no resources of their own to turn their lives around isn't a job for the highest rent "treatment professionals" in Houston.Could they do a marginally better job of it in the TMC? Possibly. Could they do an even better job of it without paying thousands extra in rent every year? Without question.The lack of ability to understand costs and benefits even by people with fairly strong communication skills frightens me to no end in an election year.And how can one not see a synergy between alcoholics and bars/vagrants? Edited August 15, 2012 by Nate99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 That they could hire a driver to run a 24-hour on-call shuttle service to the TMC in perpetuity...forever...for that amount of money (and its time value) and still have a whole bunch left over with which to pile on the client services. Of course, that assumes that they regularly give a crap about any of the things you mention...which I'll bet they don't particularly in the first place.I also doubt they care for any of the things I listed though I think they should. Non-paid internships, residencies, and pro-bono experienced staff can offer significant cost savings and potentially increase the ability of an institution to receive grants and additional funding. It's impossible to speculate what the true cost of operating in the TMC would be (even though I tossed a listing out for grins) as there are so many ways an institution could exist there. Purchasing property as mentioned earlier is not the only option, though I agree with what others have said; The Men's Center is not interested in having someone else partner with or oversee their treatment approach. But now that I've had a bit more time to think about it the Upper Kirby area near the future Richmond light rail would make even more sense. There is a shocking lack of diversity there. Then again my only true point of continuing this topic was to drive this thread up to the top for searches on "the men's center Houston". Still have a ways to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I also doubt they care for any of the things I listed though I think they should. Non-paid internships, residencies, and pro-bono experienced staff can offer significant cost savings and potentially increase the ability of an institution to receive grants and additional funding.It's impossible to speculate what the true cost of operating in the TMC would be (even though I tossed a listing out for grins) as there are so many ways an institution could exist there. Purchasing property as mentioned earlier is not the only option, though I agree with what others have said; The Men's Center is not interested in having someone else partner with or oversee their treatment approach. But now that I've had a bit more time to think about it the Upper Kirby area near the future Richmond light rail would make even more sense. There is a shocking lack of diversity there.Those people can drive or be picked up at their doorstep on-call by the free shuttle service. Hell, they could even buy a limo and stock it with good booze with Third Ward savings over the TMC. And yes, I can speculate to the true cost of operating in the TMC. I just did, and that was a conservative estimate.You're clearly not stupid, so I don't think that you're being intellectually honest with yourself or others. Away with you, troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0123 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 You guys are arguing in circles. The real solution is for Houston to do what San Antonio did and create another Haven for Hope. Find a place out of the way and consolidate all services in one huge location. It's working in San Antonio. The various orgs in Houston need to get over themselves and work together.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/15/san-antonio-officials-ope_n_539471.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Haven for Hope is in Cattleman Square, just a few blocks off downtown. The NIMBYs in this thread will not accept this for Houston. Edited August 16, 2012 by kylejack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) You guys are arguing in circles. The real solution is for Houston to do what San Antonio did and create another Haven for Hope. Find a place out of the way and consolidate all services in one huge location. It's working in San Antonio. The various orgs in Houston need to get over themselves and work together.http://www.huffingto...e_n_539471.htmlHaven for Hope is in Cattleman Square, just a few blocks off downtown. The NIMBYs in this thread will not accept this for Houston.That's not a bad idea... the biggest question is: Where would Houston put something like this? It is clear that it should not go in Midtown, Downtown, Neartown, Uptown, or anywhere inside the loop. So where then? Edited August 16, 2012 by LTAWACS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 That's not a bad idea... the biggest question is: Where would Houston put something like this? It is clear that it should not go in Midtown, Downtown, Neartown, Uptown, or anywhere inside the loop. So where then?That is not clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) But now that I've had a bit more time to think about it the Upper Kirby area near the future Richmond light rail would make even more sense. There is a shocking lack of diversity there.I wish The Men's Center all the luck in their mission, but if you think putting a rehab facility for homeless drunks improves any neighborhood in any way, shape or form, much less one with a lot going for it for people with cash to spend, I think we're done here. Edited August 16, 2012 by Nate99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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