RedScare Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 The environmental component will take care of itself via techology. Buses are far more efficient as they can go anywhere there is a road, can be rerouted at will and can be put to use for special events and emergencies. Rail and BRT are stuck on their narrow tracks. Just because they look prettier doesn't make them more efficient. Rerouting is a red herring. While BRT's advantages are numerous, including lower infrastructure cost, lower startup cost, and quicker deployment, changing routes often kills ridership. In fact, the possibility of routes being changed at will is one of the things that hurts bus ridership. It is not an advantage, no matter how many times the rubber wheeled transit supporters tout it as such. I wish they would stop it. It makes them sound like they do not know what they are doing. And it hurts the reputation of a sound transit option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Rerouting is a red herring. While BRT's advantages are numerous, including lower infrastructure cost, lower startup cost, and quicker deployment, changing routes often kills ridership. In fact, the possibility of routes being changed at will is one of the things that hurts bus ridership. It is not an advantage, no matter how many times the rubber wheeled transit supporters tout it as such. I wish they would stop it. It makes them sound like they do not know what they are doing. And it hurts the reputation of a sound transit option. Point taken, but when I wrote that post I was thinking more along the lines of rerouting around traffic jams, construction, or mother nature (like flooding). If anything happens to the rail or brt trackway, it shuts the line down with little possibility of movement until the event has been taken care of. Not so with a bus. Longer term, bus routes can be altered to meet new changes in ridership that rail and brt just can't deal with. We have to hope with rail and brt that if we build it, they will come, 'cause for sure we won't be ripping up the track and moving it over a few blocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I'll agree with you on that. In fact, every time the light rail gets shut down, guess what they bring in to get the passengers where they need to go? Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I'll agree with you on that. In fact, every time the light rail gets shut down, guess what they bring in to get the passengers where they need to go? Yep. Hehehe...I'll start believing in light rail when they lay down tracks to run a train because a bus broke down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) The environmental component will take care of itself via techology. Yes, the envioronment has become cleaner over time. Oh wait... Texas has been ranked last in the “How Green Is My State?” assessment by MPH Online, a site that gathers and analyzes information on public health education, according to Fuel Fix:Using data on each state’s renewable energy production, gasoline use, air quality and other measures, MPH Online determined that the Lone Star State is the least green state in the country. Texas ranked high for its friendliness to renewable energy, as nation’s No. 1 state for installed wind power capacity. But Texas is the nation’s worst when it comes to air quality and CO2 emissions, the organization determined.Texas’ position on the list also was hurt by its high gasoline consumption and low mass transit use. Texans use about 5.5 million gallons of motor gasoline per day, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Edited August 1, 2013 by Slick Vik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 OK, I'll play. You say that high demand requires light rail. The North/South corridor of the Express BRT in Curitiba carries an average of 188,000 passengers a day. METROs red line carries 36,000 passengers on an average day and the maximum it has ever carried is 71,000 people. If the max that you've ever carried is 40% of the proven average capacity of BRT, then please explain what the demand needs to be to justify LRT instead of BRT. TPI eyes Curitiba subway projectBrazil's Paraná state capital Curitiba is planning to build a subway line and highway concessionaire Triunfo Participações e Investimentos (TPI) (Bovespa: TPIS3) is seriously studying the project, TPI president Carlo Bottarelli told BNamericas.The subway initiative would be a first for the city and a first for the highway concessionaire.The city is planning to build a US$1bn, 22km system that will cross the city from south to north, Curitiba business relations secretary Luiz de Carvalho told BNamericas."The upcoming World Cup will help drive this project. Curitiba is the only large capital city in Brazil that does not have a subway system. There is a whole network of people calling for the construction of this subway," Bottarelli said.TPI has operated highway concessions in the south and southeast of Brazil since 1995. The firm also has investments in companies that provide public services in the highway, port and electricity generation sectors. TPI shares control of Portonave, a company authorized to operate Navegantes port in Santa Catarina state, as well as holding 100% of Rio Verde Energia.http://www.bnamericas.com/news/privatization/TPI_eyes_Curitiba_subway_project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 Los Angeles Times columnist Robert Scheer wrote about Curitiba buses:Impressionable as I am, I bought into the new buses after watching a display put on by the by the governor of Curitiba's province. It all seems so cozily efficient, what with robot-like passengers being disgorged out of all the doors simultaneously, just like Disneyland.But then Robson Ciro Chavez, a Brazilian living in the U.S., e-mailed me to set the record straight on mass transit in his hometown. I trust his summary that the system there, which we may copy, is one “where people wait, on rainy days, outside those tubes, and like cattle, [they] travel in crazy drivers' hands through the city.”Also, other Brazilians from the Curitiba area tell me the people back home would much rather have a subway system or light rail, which would be easier on the passengers and the environment. (Our Times, 3/19/00) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 BRT has been enthusiastically deployed in 147 cities spread over six continents. But as developing countries in Africa and Asia have pumped millions of dollars into new buses, reengineered streets, and stylish loading stations, the results have been disappointing in cities like Cape Town, New Delhi, and Bangkok. Local officials in these cities are finding considerable resistance from drivers and private transit operators, lower than projected ridership, and ballooning costs that threaten the long-term viability of their BRT programs. http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/03/limits-bus-rapid-transit-cape-town-case-study/4968/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Your comeback to livincinco is a triple post of news articles? ...I think you just lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 Your comeback to livincinco is a triple post of news articles? ...I think you just lost. Articles which refute his point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Articles which refute his point. No actually you didn't refute my point at all. Article #1 - says that Curitiba is studying a subway. I've never doubted the efficiency of subways. My point was specifically about not finding quantifiable advantages of LRT over BRT. Curitiba building a subway and bypassing LRT strengthens my point. Article #2 - is strictly observational data that some people like LRT rather than BRT. It confirms my earlier statement about the advantages of LRT being aesthetic, not practical. There's actually some feeling that LRT is racist based on focusing a lot of transit dollars in affluent areas while starving bus service to poorer areas. Article #3 - is related to issues with BRT in 3rd world countries. All that proves is that inefficient transit agencies build bad transit regardless of the method of transportation. I could point to Dallas or any number of LRT lines that are below expectation as examples of this as well. Scattershot articles are not an argument and are why I generally don't play anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Yes, the envioronment has become cleaner over time. Oh wait... Texas has been ranked last in the “How Green Is My State?” assessment by MPH Online, a site that gathers and analyzes information on public health education, according to Fuel Fix:And so therefore, because Texas is ranked last in someone's report today it will always be last because we all know that technology never changes. That's why we're still riding horses. Oh wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 And so therefore, because Texas is ranked last in someone's report today it will always be last because we all know that technology never changes. That's why we're still riding horses. Oh wait... The increase in technology over time has led to the degradation of the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 No actually you didn't refute my point at all. Article #1 - says that Curitiba is studying a subway. I've never doubted the efficiency of subways. My point was specifically about not finding quantifiable advantages of LRT over BRT. Curitiba building a subway and bypassing LRT strengthens my point. Article #2 - is strictly observational data that some people like LRT rather than BRT. It confirms my earlier statement about the advantages of LRT being aesthetic, not practical. There's actually some feeling that LRT is racist based on focusing a lot of transit dollars in affluent areas while starving bus service to poorer areas. Article #3 - is related to issues with BRT in 3rd world countries. All that proves is that inefficient transit agencies build bad transit regardless of the method of transportation. I could point to Dallas or any number of LRT lines that are below expectation as examples of this as well. Scattershot articles are not an argument and are why I generally don't play anymore. So take the opinion of someone who actually lives in Curubita, or the guy in Cinco Ranch. Also, Metro's 3 new lines are being built in minority areas, so racist. And you're basically disposing article #3, well because you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 The increase in technology over time has led to the degradation of the environment.So perhaps we should revert to stone age technology? Ready to give up your Mercedes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 And once again the conversation devolves into name calling. Have a nice day, I'm moving on to more productive things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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