Nate99 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Except the new Hines tower. It will be interesting to see how the park atmosphere changes once these are both up and hopefully full of people. It seems under-utilized at the moment, maybe the extra residents and design of the Hines area will be enough of an anchor to fill in a lot of the other stuff. The Chronicle garage is for sale too. If the tower on the parking lot gets built, something might become of it as well, then you would just have the old bank drive through across the intersection as non-interactve real estate around the place as opposed two the two full sides and two corners with pretty much nothing that has been the case since the park was cleaned up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Hopefully it's like Discovery Green... if you build it (and surround it and make it interesting), they will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Umm.. I guess no one realized the entire side of Market Square Park facing this tower/Kim Son is divided from the rest of the park with a large wall and completely fenced in for a dog park. Do you really want to sit at some sidewalk patio/cafe location and watch dogs take shits across the street from you the whole time? Doesn't seem very appealing to me. I don't think the retail is that bad. I just think they if they don't anchor a large tenant taking up all the northern retail spaces then they will have a hard time leasing the central retail block that lacks any street front connectivity.With all that said, does anyone know if GFR was ever planned for International Tower? Given the hundreds of new residents around the park, I almost wouldn't mind seeing the International Tower plot be turned into more park space and just build a big development at the Chronicle garage. Or at least the north half of the block be greenspace and a hotel or something on the southern half. Though then the garage next to Hogg(?) Lofts would have a prime park front location and need to be redeveloped. Edited October 6, 2014 by cloud713 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Umm.. I guess no one realized the entire side of Market Square Park facing this tower/Kim Son is divided from the rest of the park with a large wall and completely fenced in for a dog park. Do you really want to sit at some sidewalk patio/cafe location and watch dogs take shits across the street from you the whole time? Doesn't seem very appealing to me. I don't think the retail is that bad. I just think they if they don't anchor a large tenant taking up all the northern retail spaces then they will have a hard time leasing the central retail block that lacks any street front connectivity. You have a point. For this reason alone, I cannot imagine why these *#*#*#*#* dog parks are getting popular and seem to be everywhere these days. Next thing you know, they will allow dogs in restaurants. Ugh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonIsHome Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 The dog park can easily be reworked. That's no excuse for not engaging the park. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Easily reworked where? Maybe if they went with my idea to convert the International Tower block to park space and move IT to the Chron garage. Other than creating more park space nearby I don't see where you can move the dog park without dramatically reducing it's size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) You have a point. For this reason alone, I cannot imagine why these *#*#*#*#* dog parks are getting popular and seem to be everywhere these days. Next thing you know, they will allow dogs in restaurants. Ugh.Lol, I don't mind dog parks. Or dog friendly places around town.. But to complain about not having retail that faces a dog park seems a little silly to me..Does this walled off dog park really seem like a prime location to face retail, trying to engage in park visitors? Unless is an urban format petco/petsmart or something I don't see any retail being better off there than the planned locations. Edited October 6, 2014 by cloud713 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I would be surprised if potential residents are not excited about the dog park right across the street. The sales office is probably promoting the heck out of that in their Geocites kind of way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naviguessor Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Come on, Cloud. As silly as saying that retail is less viable because it is across the street from a Dog Park? For those who don't like dogs, I doubt they would even notice them across the street, across 5 lanes of Traffic. LTAWACS - Seriously? Where should city dwellers take their dogs to play, interact and do their business. Makes the neighborhood a lot more livable. For everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I would be surprised if potential residents are not excited about the dog park right across the street. The sales office is probably promoting the heck out of that in their Geocites kind of way.Haha. Don't get me wrong. It's very convenient for people with dogs, but having a location for GFR that faces the dog park? Not so much.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Parks get reconfigured all the time. Who knows what this will look like in ten years. The building is much more permanent. And a dog park with a park around it is much better to look at than the dreary parking garage that is across from their planned café on Preston. If Market Square becomes a big urban activity hub, people will not eschew a café or restaurant or whatever just because it is across the street from a dog park. The synergy of all the other restaurants and retail along the sidewalk would make it successful. Edited October 6, 2014 by H-Town Man 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Come on, Cloud. As silly as saying that retail is less viable because it is across the street from a Dog Park? For those who don't like dogs, I doubt they would even notice them across the street, across 5 lanes of traffic.It's not so much that the people will notice the dogs. It's that there will be absolutely no interaction with the park when there is a walled off dog park in the way. People were wanting it to "interact" with the park, but I don't think that would of been possible given the orientation of the dog park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 They should put a Waffle House in on that little corner next to Treebeards. There's one next to Olympic Park in Atlanta. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It's not so much that the people will notice the dogs. It's that there will be absolutely no interaction with the park when there is a walled off dog park in the way. People were wanting it to "interact" with the park, but I don't think that would of been possible given the orientation of the dog park. Wouldn't you have to walk to the corner to get there anyway, or is all of the fuss about not being able to sit and drink coffee while looking at a park? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naviguessor Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Cloud. It is a pretty busy, wide street on a relatively short block. Pedestrians will likely use the crosswalks at either end of the park, where the park is very welcoming. In fact in this case, the ends of the dog park are tapered to a point. I see Dogs and dog parks a catalysts for social interaction. Not impediments. Except for bad dogs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Alright, here is what patrons would see if there was retail where the port cochere is, facing the dog park: Here is what they will see from the proposed retail space on Preston: Here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Congress: And here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Louisiana: And the winner is... the dog park. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 arent they trying to get a grocery store to take up all the Northern blocks of retail? and i seriously doubt they would put outdoor seating area smack in the front center of their grand new tower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 No idea about the grocery store. My guess is they are trying to get whatever will take up the most space at the highest average rent with the longest leases to the most reliable tenants. If they can lease out the whole northern side of the block to smaller tenants as is depicted in the leasing brochure, they would probably prefer that, since smaller tenants generally pay a higher rent/SF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Alright, here is what patrons would see if there was retail where the port cochere is, facing the dog park: Milam.PNG Here is what they will see from the proposed retail space on Preston: Preston.PNG Here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Congress: Congress.PNG And here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Louisiana: Louisiana.PNG And the winner is... the dog park. solid points.. i just dont see the big deal with the location. especially given what i just said above. Franks does great business and its down the block a little ways from MSP. if its a good establishment people will come. i agree, it would of been nice to have MSP lined 360* with retail, but maybe they can throw out the empty space below the Car Port thing in the future and put in retail, assuming its just a covered pull up location, and has no connectivity to the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasek Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 You have a point. For this reason alone, I cannot imagine why these *#*#*#*#* dog parks are getting popular and seem to be everywhere these days. Next thing you know, they will allow dogs in restaurants. Ugh. Germany works pretty well with dogs allowed in restaurants and stores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollusk Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Oh boy, all of our fears were true, there will be absolutely no new retail facing the park in an attempt to match the other two sides of Market Square. And all of the "new retail" theyve been touting is actually all the old vacant retail in the ugly ass Kim Son garage.The only "new retail" I see is a 1,400 square foot slot facing Preston.Looks like they have made absolutely ZERO effort to interact with the park/square on the street/pedestrian level. Such a shame. It's amusing that the eateries that are tagged on the aerial photo are among the most pedestrian least representative of downtown. It also looks like they're doing zero, zip, nada to the Market Square Garage beyond joining it on the ground level and taking up a bunch of its spaces. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Germany works pretty well with dogs allowed in restaurants and stores Much of Europe does. Also, dog park + two residential towers = girls in pj's taking Sylvester out for a last potty at 11 PM. Might be fun for whoever's sitting at a bar nearby. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernz Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Alright, here is what patrons would see if there was retail where the port cochere is, facing the dog park:Milam.PNGHere is what they will see from the proposed retail space on Preston:Preston.PNGHere is what they will see from the existing retail space on Congress:Congress.PNGAnd here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Louisiana:Louisiana.PNGAnd the winner is... the dog park.Thanks H-Town; that just illustrates how beautiful Downton is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It also looks like they're doing zero, zip, nada to the Market Square Garage beyond joining it on the ground level and taking up a bunch of its spaces. If you are basing this on the rendering in the leasing brochure, I would not put much stock in that. It looks like somebody had about two minutes to put that image together. The building is actually dwarfed by the Lyric Center across the street. Then again, based on the quality of renderings and marketing materials we've seen, I'm not expecting a whole lot from this project other than more residents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollusk Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 If you are basing this on the rendering in the leasing brochure, I would not put much stock in that. It looks like somebody had about two minutes to put that image together. The building is actually dwarfed by the Lyric Center across the street. Then again, based on the quality of renderings and marketing materials we've seen, I'm not expecting a whole lot from this project other than more residents. The renderings and marketing materials seem to be heavy on the Soft Corinthian Leather. I just hope the building itself ages better than the Chrysler Cordoba did. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Alright, here is what patrons would see if there was retail where the port cochere is, facing the dog park: Milam.PNG Here is what they will see from the proposed retail space on Preston: Preston.PNG Here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Congress: Congress.PNG And here is what they will see from the existing retail space on Louisiana: Louisiana.PNG And the winner is... the dog park. Thanks H-townMan, somebody gets me. You saved me from having to post all this.Cloud, you're missing the point. Its not the what people sitting at Milam retail would see.....its what people in the park see. Do you remember what was on Milam before the Kim Son garage? It looked just like across the street at Treebeards, Warrens, Charbar. And the northern side with La Carafe, barnabys etc. Now imagine the other two sides like this, completely surrounding the park. Could you imagine? Too bad it cant happen now. I should have worded my original "they made no attempt to interact with the square" statement differently. What I meant was, they are making no attempt to fit in with the historic market square look on the ground level. Better? I think even Hines made an attempt to do this, and they're not even facing the park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Disclaimer! Howard Huge is still extremely pumped about this high rise, and all of his petty bickering and complaining in no way diminishes his excitement and anticipation of this building going up! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Thanks H-townMan, somebody gets me. You saved me from having to post all this. Cloud, you're missing the point. Its not the what people sitting at Milam retail would see.....its what people in the park see. Do you remember what was on Milam before the Kim Son garage? It looked just like across the street at Treebeards, Warrens, Charbar. And the northern side with La Carafe, barnabys etc. Now imagine the other two sides like this, completely surrounding the park. Could you imagine? Too bad it cant happen now. I should have worded my original "they made no attempt to interact with the square" statement differently. What I meant was, they are making no attempt to fit in with the historic market square look on the ground level. Better? I think even Hines made an attempt to do this, and they're not even facing the park. yes, i remember.. its a shame what happened, but the past is the past. yes.. i can imagine. i mentioned the idea in this very post below.. heh. well that makes much more sense.. i agree they arent interacting as much as i would prefer with the square. yes Hines made a great attempt, but i would argue Hines is actually on the corner, facing the square, where as this one is clearly facing south, across Preston, not at all towards the park. . i agree, it would of been nice to have MSP lined 360* with retail, but maybe they can throw out the empty space below the Car Port thing in the future and put in retail, assuming its just a covered pull up location, and has no connectivity to the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I know, bummer huh?Im just sayin, if I had any say so in it, I would've placed the retail in the lower right corner of the apartments, facing the park, I dont see why they are putting it front and center facing Preston, no one walks over there.Same with the existing Kim Son retail space facing the chase bank drive thru on Congress, who is going to see that over there? No one walks over there either.Unless they put like a small grocery store in there, alá One Park Place/Phoenecia, I dont see any other retail there succeeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstontexasjack Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 According to the Houston Business Journal, a grocery store is indeed what is desired:http://m.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2014/07/16/new-details-revealed-in-market-square-tower.html?page=all&r=full 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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