I-45 Rebuild (North Houston Highway Improvement Project)

[samagon]

3 minutes ago, ADCS said:

As far as they're concerned (remember, this is engineer-thinking we're talking about), they don't need help - perfectly good in-house solutions already exist to the problem they're trying to solve. Bringing in consultants would be unnecessary expense, and there's no political will to cover that expense.

yeah, makes sense, but I still don't like it.

[HoustonBoy]

1 hour ago, Big E said:

Austin is no real model to anyone on anything regarding traffic, highways, or transit, considering how bad its own traffic issues are, directly due to its lack of major north-south and east-west routes, how terrible and broken its own street grid is, its persistent suburban sprawl, and lagging transit. I-35 is a mess and probably does need to be rebuilt, especially the double decked portion. But the one thing this article makes supremely clear is that TxDOT is deafly afraid of even attempting to tunnel a highway, and will always throw that idea out first. Which makes the fact that they aren't planning to cap I-45 and I-69 themselves make all the more sense. Also, calling a freeway "racist and toxic" us just stupid. A freeway, by virtue of being a big slab of concrete, can be neither of those things. 

The majority of American highways in urban settings are inherently racist. Not by their existence, but by their placement. This is highly documented and can be seen in most, if not all, major cities. Developers in the 40s, 50s, and 60s were openly racist and used highways to separate and financially ruin communities of color.

[Big E]

44 minutes ago, HoustonBoy said:

The majority of American highways in urban settings are inherently racist. Not by their existence, but by their placement. This is highly documented and can be seen in most, if not all, major cities. Developers in the 40s, 50s, and 60s were openly racist and used highways to separate and financially ruin communities of color.

Freeways also ran through parks, business areas, rich communities, downtowns, waterfronts, etc. They were pretty indiscriminate in what they ran through during that period, as the focus was to run the freeway in the straightest possible route from point A to point B. This is part of the reason why the freeway revolts started in the first place; nobody was safe from them, and even the prominent wealthy communities and neighborhoods had to sit up and take notice. Remember that the first major freeway revolt happened because New Orleans wanted to build a massive expressway through the French Quarter along the riverfront.

 

1 hour ago, ADCS said:

I think TxDOT and TTI take a lot of pride in the solutions that have been developed in-state (not to mention, the local engineering companies and construction companies have a lot of pull in the Lege). However, given the lack of mountain highways or submarine tunnels built in the last 80 years, not much research into or experience from building tunnels exists within the state. That's why I think there's the bias toward cut-and-cover methods for depressed highways, rather than underground tubes.

It's not geology either - Houston used to have two functioning tunnels (now just the Washburn), and near Vancouver, they're about to rebuild a tunnel through alluvial silt in the middle of a very seismically active area (needs to withstand up to MM9.0 earthquakes).

I can appreciate that TxDOT lacks practical experience here. I can also appreciate that everyone remembers Boston's "Big Dig" and the right mess and a half that was. But the Big Dig worked; the freeway was sunk down, removing a massive eyesore from central Boston, capacity was added successfully, and a new East-West cross bay connection was added to the airport, taking pressure off the Central Artery. It was ultimately successful, despite the cost overruns, delays, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests, and death of one motorist. We can learn from the failures of that project and know what mistakes to not make next time. The Alaskan Way Viaduct replacement happened largely without (major) incident (there was one semi-major incident that stopped the project for two years) compared to the Big Dig.

 

1 hour ago, samagon said:

the freeway certainly can be toxic, by virtue of the cars that it is designed to convey spewing all sorts of toxins that are known to cause asthma among other things to people within a certain distance of the freeway. even if we get to a future where BEV is the primary single occupant vehicle, we're probably 30, or more years away from that.

True, cars are toxic polluters, but the freeway itself is just a big slab of concrete; if it was mostly unused or underutilized, it wouldn't have much effect on the actual environment.

 

1 hour ago, samagon said:

through the demographics of the residents of areas around freeways, you can make all sorts of logical conclusions about racism and freeway location. specific to segment3 of NHHIP, they're removing the freeway from the rich white side of downtown and relocating it on the poorer and less white side of downtown. it's hard to not jump straight to the racism, and oppression of the underrepresented as at least part of the reason there.

They are moving I-45 to that side because there is literally no other place to effectively move it. Since TxDOT won't completely bury I-45, and I-69 isn't being moved, only sunk, that is the most logical place to put the new freeway. TxDOT are probably counting on the fact that they are sinking both freeways, and a possible future highway cap, as making up for this. If the cap happens, no matter how one feels about them moving the freeway to that location, its probably a net positive for the community in the end.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Big E

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, ADCS said:

It's not geology either - Houston used to have two functioning tunnels (now just the Washburn), and near Vancouver, they're about to rebuild a tunnel through alluvial silt in the middle of a very seismically active area (needs to withstand up to MM9.0 earthquakes).

I presume you're referring to the Massey Tunnel replacement.  About $3.25 Billion USD for an 8-lane tunnel roughly 700 meters long.  Soooo.... somewhere in the ballpark of $85 Billion to do an 8-lane tunnel from the Beltway to the Loop.  Yeah, we should definitely do that.  🤣

[Big E]

14 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

I presume you're referring to the Massey Tunnel replacement.  About $3.25 Billion USD for an 8-lane tunnel roughly 700 meters long.  Soooo.... somewhere in the ballpark of $85 Billion to do an 8-lane tunnel from the Beltway to the Loop.  Yeah, we should definitely do that.

I mean, it would be a huge mega project, that's for sure, but they are literally building a far longer tunnel through freaking mountains in Europe, between Italy and Central Europe, so it can be done. A tunnel like that could probably get federal backing, since the idea of burying a massive eyesore of a freeway would be something a lot of the current crop of bureaucrats in Washington would probably get behind. But I would take them just burying I-45 through downtown in its current footprint, deep enough so that the area it vacates could be built over, and connecting Spur 527 to it via tunneling to remove the need for lanes connecting directly to I-69.

[Houston19514]

9 minutes ago, Big E said:

I mean, it would be a huge mega project, that's for sure, but they are literally building a far longer tunnel through freaking mountains in Europe, between Italy and Central Europe, so it can be done. A tunnel like that could probably get federal backing, since the idea of burying a massive eyesore of a freeway would be something a lot of the current crop of bureaucrats in Washington would probably get behind. But I would take them just burying I-45 through downtown in its current footprint, deep enough so that the area it vacates could be built over, and connecting Spur 527 to it via tunneling to remove the need for lanes connecting directly to I-69.

Nobody said it can't be done.  Of course it can be done.  The question is whether it would make sense to spend Tens of Billions of Dollars extra for a tunnel.  Tunnels can make sense in certain places (like to get a railroad through the Alps, when  the alternatives are (a) to go over the Alps, or (b) try to engineer additional capacity in very constrained and congested mountain passes) 

[Big E]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

Nobody said it can't be done.  Of course it can be done.  The question is whether it would make sense to spend Tens of Billions of Dollars extra for a tunnel.  Tunnels can make sense in certain places (like to get a railroad through the Alps, when  the alternatives are (a) to go over the Alps, or (b) try to engineer additional capacity in very constrained and congested mountain passes) 

In this case, I think it would. It would be a great help to the surrounding environment and community, allow them to work on the entire freeway without causing significant disruption to existing traffic, and remove any perceived issues of adding lanes or increasing highway footprint. 

[Houston19514]

Just a little additional context.  From what I can gather, the much anticipated Federal infrastructure bill includes $110 Billion for roads, bridges, and major projects.  Even just tunneling Houston's downtown portion would apparently take more than 1/3 of that.

[Ross]

2 hours ago, Big E said:

In this case, I think it would. It would be a great help to the surrounding environment and community, allow them to work on the entire freeway without causing significant disruption to existing traffic, and remove any perceived issues of adding lanes or increasing highway footprint. 

I don't think so. Any tunneling would be done by cut and cover, not actual boring machines. Cut and cover is hugely disruptive. Tunneling in Houston also has the issue of not knowing what, exactly, is underground. There are thousands of unpermitted water and oil wells from 100 years ago, and no one knows where all of them are. Europe typically does not have that problem.

[samagon]

13 hours ago, Ross said:

I don't think so. Any tunneling would be done by cut and cover, not actual boring machines. Cut and cover is hugely disruptive. Tunneling in Houston also has the issue of not knowing what, exactly, is underground. There are thousands of unpermitted water and oil wells from 100 years ago, and no one knows where all of them are. Europe typically does not have that problem.

hundreds of water wells from 150 years ago, ok, I'm listening, that makes a modicum of sense, but oil wells, in midtown and downtown? thousands you say?

further, what materials were the wells lined with? I presume these water wells were lined with metals that were as pure as 19th century technology could produce, which is to say they have probably all deteriorated to the point that any boring machine would probably not even notice they existed.

by the way, if the TxDOT is going to dig a huge trench for the freeway anyway, aren't they going to encounter these wells anyway? or did these wells only exist in the path of the current pierce elevated and not in the ROW for 59 near EaDo?

this is a dog that I am going to say probably doesn't hunt.

interesting history of Houston's city water https://www.publicworks.houstontx.gov/sites/default/files/assets/003-history_of_drinking_water_operations.pdf

[ADCS]

17 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

I presume you're referring to the Massey Tunnel replacement.  About $3.25 Billion USD for an 8-lane tunnel roughly 700 meters long.  Soooo.... somewhere in the ballpark of $85 Billion to do an 8-lane tunnel from the Beltway to the Loop.  Yeah, we should definitely do that.  🤣

Oh, it's expensive, but it's feasible. Also, Texas is way richer than BC, so why the hell not?

 

(because Texas is politically structured to favor the interests of small-to-medium business and resource extraction companies, and they derive no benefit from spending on anything more than the cheapest infrastructure)

14 hours ago, Ross said:

I don't think so. Any tunneling would be done by cut and cover, not actual boring machines. Cut and cover is hugely disruptive. Tunneling in Houston also has the issue of not knowing what, exactly, is underground. There are thousands of unpermitted water and oil wells from 100 years ago, and no one knows where all of them are. Europe typically does not have that problem.

Europe typically has buried artillery shells from the last 150 years of warfare, a bit more hazardous than an old oil well.

[dbigtex56]

Considering the number of trucks in Houston that are carrying toxic, caustic, flammable or other noxious cargo, I'm leery about having tunnels in which an accident could create a chemical gas chamber, trapping hapless motorists. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by dbigtex56

[Montrose1100]

1 hour ago, dbigtex56 said:

Considering the number of trucks in Houston that are carrying toxic, caustic, flammable or other noxious cargo, I'm leery about having tunnels in which an accident could create a chemical gas chamber, trapping hapless motorists. 

Would be a terrible way to go, but they're more likely to die in a major flooding event.

Edit: Or a road rage incident given the almost daily shootings.

[samagon]

2 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

Considering the number of trucks in Houston that are carrying toxic, caustic, flammable or other noxious cargo, I'm leery about having tunnels in which an accident could create a chemical gas chamber, trapping hapless motorists. 

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/teu/haz-mat.htm#:~:text=Houston has designated the 610,are restricted Haz-Mat routes.

Quote

Houston has designated the 610 Loop as a Haz-Mat route. Hazardous Material vehicles transporting haz-mat product must use this 610 Loop route and not travel through the city. The Pierce Elevated and Highway 59 Overpass are restricted Haz-Mat routes.

and if there's a situation where a truck carrying hazardous stuff spills, whether it's in a tunnel, or not it's gonna be a bad day for a lot of people.

my mom (driving a 1 year old me home from a Dr. visit) ended up being about 10 minutes in front of this accident on 59 back in the mid 70s. .

https://davewardshouston.com/videos/ammonia-truck-accident-releases-deadly-cloud-over-houston/#:~:text=It was the worst accident,now I-69) interchange.&text=One person was killed in,died from inhaling anhydrous ammonia.

5 dead of exposure, 78 hospitalized, and 178 injured. it was a bad day, and no tunnels necessary.

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/teu/haz-mat.htm#:~:text=Houston has designated the 610,are restricted Haz-Mat routes.

and if there's a situation where a truck carrying hazardous stuff spills, whether it's in a tunnel, or not it's gonna be a bad day for a lot of people.

my mom (driving a 1 year old me home from a Dr. visit) ended up being about 10 minutes in front of this accident on 59 back in the mid 70s. .

https://davewardshouston.com/videos/ammonia-truck-accident-releases-deadly-cloud-over-houston/#:~:text=It was the worst accident,now I-69) interchange.&text=One person was killed in,died from inhaling anhydrous ammonia.

5 dead of exposure, 78 hospitalized, and 178 injured. it was a bad day, and no tunnels necessary.

That day would have been a lot worse if it were inside a tunnel, though. 

 

[samagon]

26 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

That day would have been a lot worse if it were inside a tunnel, though. 

 

absolutely, but the city has strict instructions for where HC is allowed, and not allowed already. a tunnel would probably make their list of not allowed for HC route. 

from the link I provided in the same post Pierce Elevated and 59 next to town are already off limits to HC.

so in any of the many scenarios...

1. TxDOT goes away and Pierce Elevated stays as is where is
2. TxDOT realigns 45 and digs a big hole that is covered with a park (maybe, but lets assume yes, which basically makes it a tunnel)
3. TxDOT decides to scrap their current plan, and call in some tunnel wizards to bore a tunnel around the thousands of 100 year old oil wells in midtown and keeps the same alignment, just with a real, honest to goodness tunnel.
4. ????

COH will keep the designation that HC has to go around 610, and those methods of travel are off limits to any hazardous cargo.

and I'm sure the '76 accident was probably one of the reasons that Houston adopted HC routes.

Edited August 24, 2021 by samagon

[H-Town Man]

7 minutes ago, samagon said:

absolutely, but the city has strict instructions for where HC is allowed, and not allowed already. a tunnel would probably make their list of not allowed for HC route. 

from the link I provided in the same post Pierce Elevated and 59 next to town are already off limits to HC.

so in any of the many scenarios...

1. TxDOT goes away and Pierce Elevated stays as is where is
2. TxDOT realigns 45 and digs a big hole that is covered with a park (maybe, but lets assume yes, which basically makes it a tunnel)
3. TxDOT decides to scrap their current plan, and call in some tunnel wizards to bore a tunnel around the thousands of 100 year old oil wells in midtown and keeps the same alignment, just with a real, honest to goodness tunnel.
4. ????

COH will keep the designation that HC has to go around 610, and those methods of travel are off limits to any hazardous cargo.

and I'm sure the '76 accident was probably one of the reasons that Houston adopted HC routes.

Tell me about the thousands of 100-year-old oil wells in Midtown? I didn't know there was an oilfield there.

 

[samagon]

9 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Tell me about the thousands of 100-year-old oil wells in Midtown? I didn't know there was an oilfield there.

 

it was a playful (hopefully) jab at this post:

 

[MexAmerican_Moose]

depending on the TxDot District, most design work is done by consultants....some, like Houston District, design some of their stuff "in-house"......Tunnels cost A LOT more than bridges (especially here with the soil type) and there's barely enough infrastructure money as it is...there's all sorts of infrastructure underground (storm sewers, water lines, wastewater lines, ets)...there's a reason you have to call 311 before digging....LULZ

Edited August 24, 2021 by MexAmerican_Moose

[Ross]

10 hours ago, samagon said:

hundreds of water wells from 150 years ago, ok, I'm listening, that makes a modicum of sense, but oil wells, in midtown and downtown? thousands you say?

further, what materials were the wells lined with? I presume these water wells were lined with metals that were as pure as 19th century technology could produce, which is to say they have probably all deteriorated to the point that any boring machine would probably not even notice they existed.

by the way, if the TxDOT is going to dig a huge trench for the freeway anyway, aren't they going to encounter these wells anyway? or did these wells only exist in the path of the current pierce elevated and not in the ROW for 59 near EaDo?

this is a dog that I am going to say probably doesn't hunt.

interesting history of Houston's city water https://www.publicworks.houstontx.gov/sites/default/files/assets/003-history_of_drinking_water_operations.pdf

I didn't give a mix of oil vs water. Water wells are the most likely to be encountered, with potential flooding of tunnels if they are encountered. It's simpler to deal with the flooding issues in cut and cover than in boring due to better access and easier escape.

The problem with oil wells is no on knows where they are or how they were abandoned, if they were abandoned with more than a metal plate welded to the top of the hole. An abandoned oil well near where I live was redone about 10 years ago, and it wasn' ton any of the RRC maps when it was found.

[j_cuevas713]

Yeah just a bunch of businesses nobody cares about like Matty and Big E said. These are what make Houston great. 

[HNathoo]

2 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Yeah just a bunch of businesses nobody cares about like Matty and Big E said. These are what make Houston great. 

Are these guys within the ROW expansion?

[Ross]

36 minutes ago, HNathoo said:

Are these guys within the ROW expansion?

They are on Austin at Wheeler, NE corner, very close to the elevated portion of 59

[Big E]

5 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Yeah just a bunch of businesses nobody cares about like Matty and Big E said. These are what make Houston great. 

Congratulations, you found one of the probably 500 optical businesses in the city. Will you post a picture of one of the car lots too?

Also, it says Third Ward on that sign so I looked it up. They are right next to the section of I-69 that's going to be sunk between Midtown and the Museum District. Keep in mind, that's one of the sections almost everyone universally wants to happen and nobody has a problem with. I don't even know if their business is actually in danger of being taken, since that segment is not going to have expanded ROW, I don't think. Then again, the nearby Mexican Consulate is moving, so maybe they are taking it just in case.

If these guys were smart, they would have already made plans to move to a different location anyway. Sinking the freeway here would be a net positive for all of the surrounding communities, and nobody actually opposes this segment, so these guys should just suck this one up and move. One business should not stop something that would benefit the larger region.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Big E

[H-Town Man]

It could be that a lot of their clientele are opposed to the expansion so they thought the optics of a protest would look good.

 

[mattyt36]

1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

It could be that a lot of their clientele are opposed to the expansion so they thought the optics of a protest would look good.

 

Optics, good one!

[j_cuevas713]

9 hours ago, Big E said:

Congratulations, you found one of the probably 500 optical businesses in the city. Will you post a picture of one of the car lots too?

Also, it says Third Ward on that sign so I looked it up. They are right next to the section of I-69 that's going to be sunk between Midtown and the Museum District. Keep in mind, that's one of the sections almost everyone universally wants to happen and nobody has a problem with. I don't even know if their business is actually in danger of being taken, since that segment is not going to have expanded ROW, I don't think. Then again, the nearby Mexican Consulate is moving, so maybe they are taking it just in case.

If these guys were smart, they would have already made plans to move to a different location anyway. Sinking the freeway here would be a net positive for all of the surrounding communities, and nobody actually opposes this segment, so these guys should just suck this one up and move. One business should not stop something that would benefit the larger region.

Thanks for making my point 

[Montrose1100]

15 hours ago, Ross said:

 

The problem with oil wells is no on knows where they are or how they were abandoned, if they were abandoned with more than a metal plate welded to the top of the hole. An abandoned oil well near where I live was redone about 10 years ago, and it wasn' ton any of the RRC maps when it was found.

Are we sure?

We've got a cluster around Eureka Heights, and some within the loop at Pierce Junction, some inside the beltway 

RRC Map

[Houston19514]

14 hours ago, HNathoo said:

Are these guys within the ROW expansion?

No.  They are not within the expansion ROW.  

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, Montrose1100 said:

Are we sure?

We've got a cluster around Eureka Heights, and some within the loop at Pierce Junction, some inside the beltway 

RRC Map

Thanks for that map, I just wasted an hour.