NRG Park Mixed-Use Development

[kennyc05]

11 hours ago, shasta said:

No PLANS yet but we will start hearing whispers in the next +/- 5 years and then the demands will start getting louder.

30 years is the life span for a stadium to be deemed obsolete to attract big time events.

The Astrodome was built in 1965, as the MOST modern stadium in the World.  By 1987 (22 years later) Bud Adam's threatened to leave if stadium upgrades weren't made. He then demanded a NEW stadium in the early 90s  (+/- 30 years) and DID leave! The Astros leveraged that move into a new stadium in 2000 (38 years).

Other recent examples include the Georgia Dome built in the mid 1990s.  The Falcons have now been playing in a new Stadium for a number of years now...so around 25 years 

Also, the Texas Rangers did the same wirh their new baseball park...+/- 25/30 years.

The Metrodome in Minneapolis opened in 1982 and was demolished in 2014 ....32 years after opening!

The Twins and Vikings BOTH got a new stadium. 

NRG is easily a class below the newer stadiums in Los Angeles,  Dallas, Vegas, Minnesota and Atlanta.

If Houston wants to remain in the "big events" rotation, they will have to start thinking about a new stadium eventually. 

Again...we are only entering the "whisper" phase...but this trend is predictable. 

I will say that Minute Maid Park will NOT be replaced because they placed so much attention to detail that the charm will make it a "Historic" level venue.

NRG and the Toyota Center,  on the other hand,  are generic cookie cutter stadiums/arenas and do NOT fall into that MMP category.

I've been saying the same thing about minute maid it's turned into a classic I love it.

[hbg.50]

2 hours ago, kennyc05 said:

I've been saying the same thing about minute maid it's turned into a classic I love it.

Baseball stadiums will always be more nuanced than football stadiums.  The first and second level seats at MMP are wide enough but when you get to Terrace and Upper deck you’d better hope your neighbor is thin.  
 

The one major change I’d make at MMP and every MLB park is to angle the seats toward home plate.  Fans spend 90% of the time looking at the batter but all seats are angled towards second base.  There must be a reason for this.

NRG is fine.  It has good sight lines.  I’ve actually never been to a Rockets game at Toyota Center.  Is it much different than the Summit?

[mollusk]

8 hours ago, hbg.50 said:

Is there a reason you can’t take rail to NRG events?  

I agree with more development, BTW.  At one point I thought there was a proposal?

The Rodeo has a bunch of park and ride lots.

[Big E]

On 9/20/2024 at 4:37 PM, jmitch94 said:

How about they just maintain and renovate the one they have. There is zero reason a stadium should only last 25-30 years. 

Why not? As @shasta said, that seems to be the growing average age range of stadiums before they are torn down. The Tennessee Titans' (former Houston Oilers, go figure) Nissan Stadium is around that age and they are already building a replacement. The only thing NRG has going for it is that its in much better shape than other stadiums that are either being replaced or looking to be replaced (Nissan Stadium, the Bills' stadium, Soldier Field...).

 

On 9/21/2024 at 7:27 AM, Houston19514 said:

The plans being worked on now will almost certainly lead to an extended or new lease for the Texans, probably for 30 years. If there’s any sort of whispering going on regarding a new stadium, the whisperers had better be raising their voices very soon.

The Texans don't have to sign an extended lease. They could easily sign a more short term lease, or sign one contingent on a new stadium being built within a certain time frame.

 

On 9/21/2024 at 7:48 AM, hbg.50 said:

Unless "demolish and rebuild" is recommended by one of these firms it is safe to say we will have NRG Stadium for the next 20-30 years.

Its nothing more than a quaint fantasy to expect NRG to last another 20 to 30 years. That's just not where the sports world is going in regards to facilities. It will replaced far sooner than that for something that can compete with the larger, newer venues in the NFL.

[houstontexasjack]

6 hours ago, Big E said:

Its nothing more than a quaint fantasy to expect NRG to last another 20 to 30 years. That's just not where the sports world is going in regards to facilities. It will replaced far sooner than that for something that can compete with the larger, newer venues in the NFL.

Although my strong preference would be to renovate NRG, I’m inclined to agree with you. You can add the Cleveland Browns, Washington Commies, Jacksonville Jaguars to the list of teams that either have a deal in place or are actively seeking new stadia. The NFL’s overwhelming popularity, the desire to be able to host another Super Bowl, and the use of its venues for other prestige events like the Final Four, make a new ultra luxury stadium seem more likely than a renovation. 

[mfastx]

NRG park is a sterile wasteland. Give people a reason to go hang out before/after events. No reason why you can't eliminate majority of surface parking and build garages with bars on the ground floor. Build some apartments close to the rail station. Build a large park with a large grassy area for the rodeo to set up once a year. The minimalist approach of just having a sea of surface parking around the stadium with literally nothing else is just tired at this point. 

[htownproud]

Where would a new stadium go?  Seems like you need to keep NRG until the new stadium is built so the Texans have a place to play and the Rodeo can occur (I suppose the Texans could play in College Station; Bears did that for a season or two during renovations of Soldier Field).  Ideal, if we build a new stadium--whenever that is--we knock down the Astrodome and build it there.  I guess it could also go where Astroworld was, although the rail is not as close.  

FWIW on the life of a stadium, the Superdome in New Orleans was built in 1971, still going strong (although seems dated to me), and still attracting big events (albeit, I think NO is the draw, not the stadium).  

[shasta]

I didn't spend too much time looking but there appears to be spots in/near downtown:

 

 

I doubt they'd pick the Courthouse location, but if they were close to needing a new facility they might swap out city owned land for a stadium location.

 

No way they build it next to NRG. Imagine the joke if Houston had THREE stadiums built next to each other.

 

I still think downtown locations are popular. Plus, we'd have venues for baseball, basketball, soccer, football and hopefully hockey all in ONE spot within walking distance of each other.

[kennyc05]

19 minutes ago, shasta said:

I didn't spend too much time looking but there appears to be spots in/near downtown:

 

 

I doubt they'd pick the Courthouse location, but if they were close to needing a new facility they might swap out city owned land for a stadium location.

 

No way they build it next to NRG. Imagine the joke if Houston had THREE stadiums built next to each other.

 

I still think downtown locations are popular. Plus, we'd have venues for baseball, basketball, soccer, football and hopefully hockey all in ONE spot within walking distance of each other.

The thing with downtown football stadiums is they take up a lot more space than baseball or basketball venues.

[Houston19514]

A little reality check here, if I may. If a new football stadium were to be built downtown, they would have to do it without the Rodeo's funding assistance. PLUS, and probably more important, there would also need to be upgrades/improvements, continuing maintenance for NRG Stadium to house the rodeo. In short, a downtown NFL stadium in Houston is highly unlikely, to put it mildly.

 

 

[Renaissance1999]

Centennial Yards: Connecting Atlanta's Downtown Communities

The best example of a mixed-use district, new mini city is the centennial yards in Atlanta being built around the Mrecedes-Benz stadium. I mentioned this before when I took a photo from a flight going above the NRG stadium. We have plenty of room to actually make this happen. During off season this will still attract many people. 

[shasta]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

A little reality check here, if I may. If a new football stadium were to be built downtown, they would have to do it without the Rodeo's funding assistance. PLUS, and probably more important, there would also need to be upgrades/improvements, continuing maintenance for NRG Stadium to house the rodeo. In short, a downtown NFL stadium in Houston is highly unlikely, to put it mildly.

 

 

I still wonder why we didn't just name our NFL team the Houston Rodeo.

 

Same logo..same everything

[editor]

16 hours ago, Big E said:

? As @shasta said, that seems to be the growing average age range of stadiums before they are torn down. The Tennessee Titans' (former Houston Oilers, go figure) Nissan Stadium is around that age and they are already building a replacement.

• Soldier Field - Chicago Bears: opened 1924
• Lambeau Field - Green Bay Packers: opened 1957
• Arrowhead Stadium - Kansas City Chiefs: 1972
• Highmark Stadium - Buffalo Bills: 1973
• Caesars Superdome - New Orleans Saints: 1975
• Hard Rock Stadium - Miami Dolphins: 1987
• Everbank Stadium - Jacksonville Jaguars: 1995

And that's just the NFL.  There's no reason NRG should only last 30 years, unless it's just typical Houston lack of maintenance and neglect.  

[hindesky]

Buffalo is currently building a new domed stadium. Bears are trying to figure out where they are going, a renovated Soldier Field or out to Arlington at property they already purchased. Chiefs are asking for welfare money so they can build a new stadium, Kansas City, Mo voters turned them down so now the Chiefs are in negations with Kansas to move across the river. Kansas governor is for it.

[Brooklyn173]

A surprise,  but the new Bill's stadium will NOT be domed and the current stadium is 51 years old. NRG is in its early 20s.

I think half the NFL stadiums are older than NRG.

I know Houston is a tear down city, but money might be better spent with a significant rehab but not a brand new stadium. Which has been done in many stadiums in the NFL (Miami may be the single best model).

[editor]

Baseball stadia:

• Fenway Park - Boston Red Sox - 1912
• Wrigley Field - Chicago Cubs - 1914
• Dodger Stadium - Los Angeles Dodgers - 1962
• Angel Stadium - Los Angeles Angels - 1966
• Oakland Coliseum - Oakland A's - 1966
• Kauffman Stadium - Kansas City Royals - 1973
• Rogers Centre - Toronto Blue Jays - 1989
• Tropicana Field - Tampa Bay Rays - 1990
• Guarantee Rate Field - Chicago White Sox - 1991
• Oriole Park - Baltimore Orioles - 1992
• Progressive Field - Cleveland Guardians - 1994
• Coors Field - Colorado Rockies - 1995
• Chase Field - Phoenix Diamondbacks - 1998
• T-Mobile Park - Seattle Mariners - 1999
• Comercia Park - Detroit Tigers - 2000
• Minute Maid Park - Houston Astros - 2000
• Oracle Park - San Francisco Giants - 2000
• American Family Field - Milwaukee Brewers - 2001
• PNC Park - Pittsburgh Pirates - 2001

The Oakland stadium isn't a good egg, though.  It's so bad that the team is moving to Las Vegas for a to get a new facility.  It repeatedly tried to get one out of Oakland, but was told to go pound sand.  So it is.

Still, if NRG is so poorly built or poorly maintained that it has to be replaced already, then Harris County taxpayers should get a refund.

[houstontexasjack]

The Jacksonville Jaguars’ stadium appears headed for an extensive renovation. Something like this might work better for NRG:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-city-of-jacksonville-approve-agreement-to-build-1-4-billion-stadium-of-the-future/amp/

 

[hbg.50]

1 hour ago, editor said:

Still, if NRG is so poorly built or poorly maintained that it has to be replaced already, then Harris County taxpayers should get a refund.

Note that a single poster on HAIF has suggested NRG be replaced.  Nobody remotely related to the Texans or the Rodeo has made such a suggestion. 

[shasta]

19 minutes ago, hbg.50 said:

Note that a single poster on HAIF has suggested NRG be replaced.  Nobody remotely related to the Texans or the Rodeo has made such a suggestion. 

It's coming so prepare yourself, especially if the Texans are as good as we think they can be.

 

Remember, Houston caved in for Bud Adams and gave him extensive Astrodome renovations in 1987.

 

Think he was happy?  No! He demanded a new stadium a few years later and had a home in Tennessee by the mid 90s.

 

Drayton, on the other hand, said the Astrodome is FINE but once Bud announced he was moving...we NEED a new baseball stadium!

Sports owners are very opportunistic and anyone who thinks NRG is keeping up with the newer stadiums in Atlanta, Los Angeles, Dallas, Minnesota, etc. is not paying attention.

Houston wants to be in the BIG TIME event rotation (Super Bowl, Final Four, World Cup, etc.), and the stadium will become more and more of an issue because we are NOT a tourist destination.

New Orlean's  outdated stadium gets a lifetime exemption because it is a huge party city..Houston is NOT.

[Houston19514]

I've asked this question a numerous times of times of people who claim NRG is far behind the likes of Dallas, Atlanta, Minnesota etc, and have never gotten an answer.  What is it that NRG Stadium lacks that puts it behind these other stadiums?

[shasta]

28 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

I've asked this question a numerous times of times of people who claim NRG is far behind the likes of Dallas, Atlanta, Minnesota etc, and have never gotten an answer.  What is it that NRG Stadium lacks that puts it behind these other stadiums?

They are missing  A LOT...in terms of capacity, amenities and game day experience.

Here are some of the recent stadiums:

SoFi Stadium (Los Angeles)

Alegiant Stadium (Las Vegas)

US

US Bank Stadium (Minneapolis)

 

AT&T Stadium (Dallas):

[hbg.50]

4 hours ago, shasta said:

Houston wants to be in the BIG TIME event rotation (Super Bowl, Final Four, World Cup, etc.), and the stadium will become more and more of an issue because we are NOT a tourist destination.

Houston hasn’t had any problem scoring these big time events for NRG., even compared to all the stadiums you listed.  You are manufacturing a crisis that doesn’t exist.

Personally I don’t care one way or the other.  I think the city has higher priorities though.

[jmitch94]

7 hours ago, shasta said:

Quote

Houston wants to be in the BIG TIME event rotation (Super Bowl, Final Four, World Cup, etc.), and the stadium will become more and more of an issue because we are NOT a tourist destination.

But why do we need to be in the “big time” event rotation or a tourist destination? Why kowtow to these big event organizers, spend millions (potentially billions) of tax payer dollars to build these supposedly needed facilities and then have the vast majority of the money that comes with these events go to a few restaurant and hotel owners?
 

Quote

Why not? As @shasta said, that seems to be the growing average age range of stadiums before they are torn down. The Tennessee Titans' (former Houston Oilers, go figure) Nissan Stadium is around that age and they are already building a replacement. The only thing NRG has going for it is that its in much better shape than other stadiums that are either being replaced or looking to be replaced (Nissan Stadium, the Bills' stadium, Soldier Field...).

Because it’s insanely wasteful and often the tax payer foots the bill. If the billionaire owner wants a new stadium he can finance one himself and I’d be all for that.

[shasta]

1 hour ago, jmitch94 said:

But why do we need to be in the “big time” event rotation or a tourist destination?

Because it's a Return on Investment.

A) Build Stadium

B) Acquire Big Time Event

C) Receive tax revenue from packed hotels, increased restaurant customers including alcohol sales plus all of the other boosts to the economy.

NRG is in the rotation now but not guaranteed to be in the future.

[samagon]

19 hours ago, shasta said:

They are missing  A LOT...in terms of capacity, amenities and game day experience.

Here are some of the recent stadiums:

SoFi Stadium (Los Angeles)

Alegiant Stadium (Las Vegas)

US

US Bank Stadium (Minneapolis)

AT&T Stadium (Dallas):

those are just pictures of stadiums. 

there are 7 stadiums with more capacity than NRG, all the way up to 82,000 capacity, where NRG is only 72,000.

you'll have to provide some written detail pertaining to the amenities and game day experiences that other stadiums offer than NRG does not.

for as infrequently as it is used there are only 4 other (5 total) stadiums with a retractable roof.

NRG was renovated to include and update amenities for the 2017 Super Bowl. they got new turf, sophisticated internet. there are a lot of fan interaction zones around the field.

most important to high roller types is there are nearly 200 luxury suites, everything from intimate 12-18 people, all the way up to being able to accommodate 150 people.

sofi stadium to contrast has 260 suites, but their largest accommodates 40. so if NRG wanted to reconfigure some of those large suites to accommodate more suites, but lower capacity, I'm sure they could do it. I bet the Rodeo has requirements for larger suites though. just a guess there.

luckily, at the end of the day, the Texans can rename themselves and go somewhere else, but the Houston rodeo is probably not going to move. although I don't think they'll want to leave soon, there's not a lot to gain from it.

fun fact, the rodeo distributes as much money to local residents as the super bowl does. seems like that should make sense because it's an event that lasts over 2 weeks vs the super bowl is one weekend, unless you count the fan experience that runs for 2 weeks leading up to the SB.

[Houston19514]

22 hours ago, shasta said:

They are missing  A LOT...in terms of capacity, amenities and game day experience

 

That’s exactly the kind of answer I get every time, which, with respect, tells us nothing, except that some stadiums have slightly higher capacity (and a higher capacity does not appear to be a requirement or even much of a plus for most of the big-time events we are going for (and routinely getting))

What amenities is NRG Stadium missing?  What is missing from our game day experience?

[hbg.50]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

That’s exactly the kind of answer I get every time, which, with respect, tells us nothing, except that some stadiums have slightly higher capacity (and a higher capacity does not appear to be a requirement or even much of a plus for most of the big-time events we are going for (and routinely getting))

What amenities is NRG Stadium missing?  What is missing from our game day experience?

I just read Houston will be hosting Gold Cup games in 2025 at both NRG and Shell Stadiums.  

[tigereye]

23 hours ago, shasta said:

Because it's a Return on Investment.

A) Build Stadium

B) Acquire Big Time Event

C) Receive tax revenue from packed hotels, increased restaurant customers including alcohol sales plus all of the other boosts to the economy.

NRG is in the rotation now but not guaranteed to be in the future.

NRG Stadium is hosting a World Cup, something both Allegiant Stadium and US Bank Stadium (venues you referenced) had opportunities at. A fancy, iconic designed stadium isn’t necessary to secure events. NRG Stadium clearly proves that point right now. It’s a well designed venue (for its time, opened 2002) that has stood the test of time and continues to attract events to this very day. I fully expect it will get a massive renovation, not entirely replaced. A good renovation can create an iconic structure too. See Santiago Bernabeu.

I’ll go as far as to say this. None of the Big 3 venues in Houston will be replaced, especially considering the massively overinflated construction budgets for stadiums nowadays. They will all get major renovations that will include on site mixed use development, following the trend in the industry (see Battery Park in ATL or Hollywood Park at SoFi Stadium). The Astros have already extended their lease until 2050 and are working on a mixed use ballpark village development while the Rockets are looking at creating their own mixed use development

EDIT: NRG landed hosting rights to another major event today that will attract the masses. But yeah sure, let’s dump the place for a shiny new toy 🙄

 

Edited September 25 by tigereye

[tigereye]

On 9/24/2024 at 12:28 PM, shasta said:

They are missing  A LOT...in terms of capacity, amenities and game day experience.

SoFi Stadium (Los Angeles)

Fun fact: SoFi Stadium for its impressive design and whopping $5.5 billion cost has one glaring issue that can negatively impact the game day experience. It has no air conditioning and on hot days, it can create an issue. HKS (architect) counted on Pacific breezes to provide natural cooling but a low slung roof design to meet FAA clearance guidelines for nearby LAX doesn’t leave a lot of space for breezes to flow through the stadium. There are sliding vent panels in the ETFE roof that can be opened to help add airflow from the top of the roof but nonetheless, heat can be an issue.

When SoFi hosted the Super Bowl a few years back, it was the second hottest temperature the game was ever played in.

For all the amenities and fancy design you say NRG Stadium is missing, at least it has air conditioning to improve the overall game day experience. 
 

Edited September 25 by tigereye

[jmitch94]

23 hours ago, shasta said:

Because it's a Return on Investment.

A) Build Stadium

B) Acquire Big Time Event

C) Receive tax revenue from packed hotels, increased restaurant customers including alcohol sales plus all of the other boosts to the economy.

NRG is in the rotation now but not guaranteed to be in the future.

But these stadiums cost billions of dollars now and are supposedly only good for 25-30 years. I highly doubt that the ROI on that is in the black. Would a new stadium bring in an additional several hundred million dollars a year in tax revenue over what the current stadium would be bringing in?