77017 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I didn't see that one coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
native_Houstonian Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Click 2 Houston story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm1fd Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I didn't see that one coming.So sad.....that he didn't spend any time in jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimberlySayWhat Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 It had to have been the stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77017 Posted July 5, 2006 Author Share Posted July 5, 2006 What goes around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heights2Bastrop Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Forget the autopsy. I want a DNA test! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I am sure he'll be spotted in Fiji in a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Note merged two dead Ken Lay threads. At least the government can still go after his estate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I didn't see that one coming.niether did he. i guess that makes him a dead lay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 In Colorado of all places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heights2Bastrop Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 The jury pronounced him Guilty.The coroner pronounced him dead.One thing for sure is that he won't be able to appeal the coroner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highway6 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 $5 says whichever morgue he is moved to burns down mysteriously.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 The jury pronounced him Guilty.The coroner pronounced him dead.One thing for sure is that he won't be able to appeal the coroner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 This is destined to become another "urban legend" just like the "alligators in the sewers" myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Note merged two dead Ken Lay threads. At least the government can still go after his estate. Maybe in a civil case but I think in a criminal case if the defendent dies after conviction everything goes back to before the trial. I think it's called ab initeo?? [Red?????] Anyway, it sucks all the way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) Maybe in a civil case but I think in a criminal case if the defendent dies after conviction everything goes back to before the trial. I think it's called ab initeo?? [Red?????]Anyway, it sucks all the way around. I think nmainguy guy wins today's obscure legal fact award. I was going to respond that you were wrong, when I found this blog, while reading something else. White Collar Crime Prof Blog It seems that when a defendant dies while the case is on appeal, like this one, the entire case legally disappears. So, Ken Lay, by benefit of his conviction being under appeal, may achieve in death what he could not do in life...innocence. The prosecution's suit to attach his assets may go away, as well. Stay tuned. NOTE: The term is "ab initio", or "from the beginning". Edited July 5, 2006 by RedScare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I think nmainguy guy wins today's obscure legal fact award. I was going to respond that you were wrong, when I found this blog, while reading something else. White Collar Crime Prof Blog It seems that when a defendant dies while the case is on appeal, like this one, the entire case legally disappears. So, Ken Lay, by benefit of his conviction being under appeal, may achieve in death what he could not do in life...innocence. The prosecution's suit to attach his assets may go away, as well. Stay tuned. NOTE: The term is "ab initio", or "from the beginning". WOW ! Now Katy can Rename their YMCA back to the Ken Lay "Y". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danax Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 It seems that when a defendant dies while the case is on appeal, like this one, the entire case legally disappears. So, Ken Lay, by benefit of his conviction being under appeal, may achieve in death what he could not do in life...innocence. The prosecution's suit to attach his assets may go away, as well.Makes me wonder if his lawyers told him about this possible scenario. If so, maybe he consciously or subconsiously caused/wished for his own death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) I think nmainguy guy wins today's obscure legal fact award. I was going to respond that you were wrong, when I found this blog, while reading something else. White Collar Crime Prof Blog It seems that when a defendant dies while the case is on appeal, like this one, the entire case legally disappears. So, Ken Lay, by benefit of his conviction being under appeal, may achieve in death what he could not do in life...innocence. The prosecution's suit to attach his assets may go away, as well. Stay tuned. NOTE: The term is "ab initio", or "from the beginning". Can his estate be sued in a civil action? BTW, now that I know the spelling I looked up the definition and there were many. I thought this one might be particularly annoying: ab initio Latin for "from the beginning." This term is used by lawyers intent upon getting their money's worth from a liberal arts education by uttering such statements as "The judge was against me ab initio." Edited July 5, 2006 by nmainguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heights2Bastrop Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Anybody else think this could have been a well-planned suicide?That thought crossed my mind before, but when I read this about not being able to go after his money, it made sense that he would end his life so that his family would still have money. He may have preferred death to prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Apparently the civil suits can continue against the estate. However, they can no longer rely on the fact of a criminal conviction as evidence, so the civil cases are significantly weakened. Have the appeals on the criminal conviction been filed yet, or had he just said he was going to appeal? Amazing that his dying could let his family remain multi-millionaires. Maybe Lay was right, and God really did have a plan for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Anybody else think this could have been a well-planned suicide?That thought crossed my mind before, but when I read this about not being able to go after his money, it made sense that he would end his life so that his family would still have money. He may have preferred death to prison. H2B, My suspicious mind tells me the Lays were never going to go without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Anybody else think this could have been a well-planned suicide?That thought crossed my mind before, but when I read this about not being able to go after his money, it made sense that he would end his life so that his family would still have money. He may have preferred death to prison. You're right. It didn't cross my mind until I read about the financial implications. Think about it: he can die in prison and leave his family penniless and humiliated. Or, he can die now and leave his family enormously wealthy. Maybe he thought it was a simple choice. And don't do it minutes away from one of the best medical centers in the country. Go to some small town where the medical services aren't going to be as good, and do it in the middle of the night on a holiday. That would make a great plot for a Grisham book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heights2Bastrop Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) Think about it: he can die in prison and leave his family penniless and humiliated. Or, he can die now and leave his family enormously wealthy.My thoughts exactly, Subdude.Another thought – does his dying in a state other than where the offences were committed affect any legal rulings? Edited July 5, 2006 by Heights2Bastrop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 ^^Redscare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Another thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalparadise Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Do you guys really believe Lay would do something as noble as committing suicide to leave a fortune to his family? Ha!Two scenarios -- He learned of this ab initio thing and faked his own death to go into hiding and spend his fortune.Or, his family found out about this ab initio thing and had him killed so they could spend his fortune.Or, maybe George Bush did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Do you guys really believe Lay would do something as noble as committing suicide to leave a fortune to his family? Ha! Of course not, the guy had the morals of a jackel. He probably figured in his arrogant little mind he would get off on appeal. He was just pathetic on so many levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrose1100 Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 He knew this thing from the start . This is probibly one of many scenarios they had planned out, next it's off to get plastic surgery, get new legal documents, and next thing you know Miss Lay will be on the news for finding a new fiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalparadise Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 He knew this thing from the start .This is probibly one of many scenarios they had planned out, next it's off to get plastic surgery, get new legal documents, and next thing you know Miss Lay will be on the news for finding a new fiance. ...Unless Mrs. Lay was the one who was killed and Ken is posing as her in drag, to conceal his identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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